Dr Gianna Brummer, Reclaiming the Soul in Medicine

If you’ve ever felt like a square peg in a round-hole world, especially within the hallowed halls of medicine, then this episode of Awakening Doctor is for you. Dr. Gianna Brummer, a medical doctor with extensive psychotherapeutic training, shares her personal story of reclaiming body, mind, and soul within medical practice.

Together, we explore the evolution of her career from the confines of conventional medicine to an intuitive, soul-based coaching approach, and reflect on the value of self-awareness and intuition in guiding both patient and practitioner through difficult times.

With personal revelations and professional insights on the delicate interplay between body and soul, alongside an exploration of the challenges of medical education and ethical dilemmas in the medical hierarchy, this conversation is a heartfelt exploration of sensitivity, empathy, and the courage required to align your career with the call of your soul.

Join us for an opportunity to view healthcare and health professionals through a wider, more inclusive lens - one that will resonate deeply with anyone who has ever felt misplaced or misunderstood within the traditional healthcare system.

Chapters

• 0:00 Healing Perspectives in Medical Practice
• 5:48 Journey of Trusting Intuition in Medicine
• 15:45 Navigating Sensitivity in Medical Education
• 24:52 Trust Your Soul
• 39:52 Medical System and Soul Healing Journeys
• 49:14 Discovering and Embracing Our Unique Medicine
• 53:28 Foreign Exchange Experience and Spiritual Awakening
• 1:00:32 Ethical Dilemmas in Medical Hierarchy
• 1:12:38 Empowering Patients and Shifting Mindsets
• 1:22:18 Challenges in the Medical System
• 1:28:16 Awakening Doctors Through Deep Conversations

Transcript

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 00:00

I remember working in Switzerland a couple of months and I was working in an anthroposophic clinic and the doctors there they had sometimes patients and the patient said, well, but can you talk about that decision with my healer? And the doctor said, yes, of course, we’ll call your healer. So the doctors called the healer and they came to a good decision and they talked with the patients about it. And then the patient said, yeah, that's a good idea, so it was fine to have a healer and the doctors actually talked to the healer and listened and they would work together hand in hand, and that's something I would picture. 

 I think doctors are very afraid to lose their power. Like, in Germany we have healing practitioners that are not doctors. They have a very basic education about diseases and stuff, but very often they're very good at natural healing techniques. I've met, personally, I've met very many good healing practitioners. The doctor's like, oh yeah, they're just healing practitioners, and that's so sad, because I think it could be. We all have the same goal. We want to heal, and it's not about who is the best healer, but it seems like this is the battle right now, like who is the best, who can heal? Okay, no, only the doctors can heal.

 Dr Maria Christodoulou Host

 It's who's right and who's wrong.

 Dr Gianna Brummer Guest

 Yeah, not even that, not even the best. It's just like, yeah, you're wrong, we're right and we're going to do it. And if the patient dies, well, yeah, well, then there was no other way. 

 I would love that, if the minds would shift to having different perspectives. Just sit at a table and talk about it. How do you see cancer? Sometimes I have patients who have medical, like physical problems, and very often we see, okay, there's a mental problem, like a spiritual problem behind it, and that has helped so many people because it feels like it's actually solvable, it's controllable in a way. 

I don't feel like, okay, there's something in my body happening and I don't have power over it. I feel powerless because it's doing what it wants to and I have no access. And there is actually access to that and I think it would just empower people to know that. And if just every patient with a physical disease had a psychotherapist come over and say, well, yeah, you know what's maybe the problem behind it, what has happened in the last couple of years or months? I think that would help a lot too.

 Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 02:26

Welcome. I'm Dr Maria Christodoulou, and this is the Awakening Doctor podcast, a space where we discover the personal stories of those who work in the medical and health professions. Join me as I explore the hopes, the fears, the aspirations and the real-life challenges of those who carry the title, responsibility and privilege of being a doctor. My guest today is Dr Gianna Brummer, who joins us all the way from Boppart in Germany. Gianna is a medical doctor with extensive psychotherapeutic training and experience, as well as knowledge of integrative medicine, who has transitioned into working exclusively as a coach and primarily with women. She works with intuition and self-empowerment to help people become aware of and make visible their own unique, transformative medicine in the world. She's also the co-founder of a business network titled Perfectly Imperfect Mums and a founder of the Mental Health School for Coaches, which aims to equip coaches to recognize and understand how mental illness and psychodynamics can influence the coaching process. 

03:38

Also in the room with us is Amy Kaye, writer and narrative coach and the producer and editor of the Awakening Doctor podcast. Welcome, Gianna, it's wonderful to have you here today. It's been quite some time since we met in Corfu and I'm really looking forward to exploring with you some of the themes about health and healing and relationship and leadership and womanhood that we explored in that circle of women that we sat in together all those years ago, and I'm curious about where you would like us to begin. Where should we start telling your story? 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 04:17

That's a good question. Maybe at the turning point from where I noticed that the way in the classical system, not my path. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 04:33

Okay, do you want to say more about that? 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 04:35

I remember when we were in Corfu, I don't know if I was still studying or if I was the beginning of my first years in the psychotherapeutical area. I was working with children and young adults who had mental problems and I was very eager to learn, and at the same time I always felt like something was missing, like something essential, and part of that, what I was missing, I found in that women's circle, actually. Part of it was the embodiment and maybe also a consciousness beyond the mind that I was missing in my work, also in my psychotherapeutic work. Part of the spirit that I felt like there was healing to be found, while what I was doing in the medical system was trying to fix the mind, and that felt more weird to me. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 05:35

You're reminding me about that circle and how important it was, even for me, in terms of the embodiment stuff and the awakening that became possible sitting in circle and telling stories. 

05:48

I arrived there the first time and I think it was the year that we met, in 2014, so burnt out and exhausted and I was about to embark on a PhD, and there was a whole lot of stuff happening for me at the faculty, and I remember the first week in that circle. 

06:06

I just sat and listened to Chameli tell stories about the goddesses, and I could so relate to all the archetypes. And then the conversations I was having with all these women in the circle that had nothing to do with what your job is or what you do every day. It was really about deeper things that matter and how healing that was, how transformative that was, and that each of us was called to that circle in a way, because that's what we were looking for. We knew that there was something beyond what medicine was offering us on a very practical level to facilitate healing. Something drew you to the psychotherapeutic work because, as you say, you were working with children, you were working with young adults, but your journey in medicine started a lot before that. What is it about you that you think made it possible for you to know that there was more to medicine than what you were doing? 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 07:08

I grew up in a city in Germany and it's not even close to anything that's known in Germany. It's not close to Munich or Cologne or anything. And I didn't know why, it just didn't feel like this was my home. And I think from that point I kind of started looking where I actually belonged, or you know, where my crowd was, or what was so different about me that made me not feel home. And I think there's two things that I found. The one thing is that my soul wasn't quite on earth, so I couldn't feel home, so it was kind of floating above me, which I found out later, and that made me only halfway experience my experience. It was really like I was detached from my body, I was detached from this earth. 

08:04

And I think that happens to many, many people who are very, very sensitive. They come into this world and they feel, oh, something's not like I imagined it would be. Babies always know what potential there is in their parents for example. But no parents can grasp this whole potential that they have, because it's so bound in inner conflicts and outer conflicts, and so we only have like 20% maybe of the potential that they actually have. And so you feel as a baby, you feel like, oh, what's wrong with me, because it's all very much circled around ourselves when we're born. That was something like okay, what is wrong with me that I don't get the whole love that there is? 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 08:47

I can see this love. Why can't I get it? And also some things that happened around me. They felt too much, they felt overwhelming, and at some point I obviously decided that it was more safe to kind of float above the things that were happening. And the price that I paid, which I didn't know because it was not a conscious decision was that I couldn't experience things fully, that I couldn't embody things, that many things were just. took place in my head, Like I had a very wild fantasy and I was living in daydreams, basically, and I had very vivid dreams, also at night, and it kind of made an opening to the spiritual worlds which I didn't know back then. 

09:40

But even as a child I had dreams in the night where I could foresee things that happened the next day. And fortunately this was a common thing in my family. So my mom could say, okay, that's normal. So even my grandparents had that. In a way in my family. It was not spiritual. It was kind of normal that this happened for some reason, because I was growing up in a very not religious family, because they were very disappointed by the Catholic church and everything could not be spiritual or religious, but this was normal. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 10:15

It was normal for people in the family to have dreams about what was going to happen and predict? Right. 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 10:20

Yes, and it started happening also during the day. I remember this one time. I was 15 and that had never happened before, so it scared me. I remember it like it was yesterday. I was standing under the shower and I had planned to meet my.. It was the cousin of my grandma, but I was very, very connected to her. And I was standing in the shower and suddenly I had that thought, what if the phone is going to ring now? And what if her husband is on the phone saying that something happened and she has to go to the hospital? And I was like what, what am I thinking? And I pushed away that thought, and then I stepped out of the shower and suddenly I heard the phone ring and a couple of minutes later my mom called. Jana. Something happened to Ruth and it was exactly that Her husband had called and she had multiple sclerosis and it had gotten worse and then she had to go to the hospital. And that was like the first time that it happened during the day. 

11:23

And those were the things, though, even though they scared me, these experiences that kind of opened my mind to, there's more out there than I can see or feel, and it's not all about the mind and it's also this space that you get into when you have these foreseeings. It's kind of like this intuitive space. It's kind of a different feeling. One thing, the things that you can think, and they feel a certain way. And then there's this part where you know, okay, this is intuition, this is feeling, this is gut feeling or whatever you would call it, and for some reason this opened a space that was not shakable. 

12:06

I learned how to trust that in a way, and even though lots of times in my life, like when I was in medical school, for example, there were lots of times where I doubted my intuition because there were so many things that were pushed into your head and that you had to learn, because you had to take these exams and you had to know that, but at the same time I always felt like, oh, this is killing me. 

12:34

I felt so dark inside. The more the stuff came into my head and the less I could feel my intuition or like also my sensual side, my sensitive side or my creative side, as well. I felt so unhappy and so lost that I kind of always had to fight through this university stuff. It was always like, okay, how much do I do to pass these exams and how much do I do to survive? It felt very, very wrong lots of times, and so there was lots of doubt during my journey in the mind-based things that I learned, but there was also doubt, of course, in the intuition part. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 13:35

You shared that story about learning to trust your intuition the last time we spoke, when we were thinking about having this conversation, and I remember it stayed with me because so often the story that I'm hearing, and certainly my own experience, was that as a child the conditioning is to not trust that intuition. Somebody else always knows better than you. Somebody else is always directing. well, certainly in my case, directing my life, telling me what to do, telling me what was right, telling me what was acceptable, telling me what good girls are supposed to do, to the point where eventually that intuition is almost silenced, like one can't actually hear it. And what I thought was really interesting with you was that, even though there were these phases of your life where you doubted it, you gave it more emphasis most of the time and you trusted your instincts and your intuition more than you trusted what your mind was hearing or learning or experiencing. Quite beautiful actually. 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 14:23

Yeah, I think that kind of saved my life because it would have, like I said, I think it would really have killed me if I had not trusted that at all. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 14:34

You also said to me last time that you felt like your whole body died during your time at medical school. Do you want to say more about that? 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 14:44

Yeah, I felt like very tormented because you know when you hear something and they say, okay, this is right and you will have to learn that or you fail and you cannot pursue your career, and at the same time you have such huge resistance, like your whole body is rebelling against what you hear. Like they say, okay, for example, multiple sclerosis is not healable, or cancer is not healable, and at the same time, the cousin of my grandmother that I was just talking about, she had had multiple sclerosis and she had sat in a wheelchair when she was 30. And she had, through healing work that she did on her own, through finding her own path, she had been able to walk again. She was working as a secretary and she started working as a painter and as an actress and she could walk and she had a very happy life after she had found her way of healing. 

15:45

I know people who were told they have cancer, that is not healable and they should get their last things done. And they're still alive and they don't have cancer. And something inside me was like why are they so strict in their minds about how things are going to be? How do they think that they know that? 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 16:07

Right. Where does that certainty come from, because there is evidence to the contrary. 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 16:12

Yeah, I think especially I wasn't that embodied, which was also part of the problem. But I don't know if I could have studied medicine if I was fully embodied like I am now, because even not fully embodied, I had this rebellion inside my body and it felt like tight and wrong. But right now, I don't think I could do it. I don't know how I would do it. I honestly don't. I would have to split something inside me just up.

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 16:47

I think that's what happens to many people and they don't even realize that it's happened to them. That split. 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 16:54

I also know some people who have studied with me who didn't notice it during. We were studying. They always thought I was kind of weird, I think. Like, oh, what's the problem Buther , when they became doctors, they then found out that there's nothing that they can really fit in. You know, they always thought, okay, 

17:13

I will just find my place once I'm working and having my specification or whatever. And they never did and they felt lost and they turned to me. I think it's when you're sensitive and when you have a deep connection to your heart or your body. I think it's very hard to do these guidelines that they do. I remember that when I was still studying, we had, I don't know how it's in South Africa, but we had these internships where you worked once before you got into the clinics. You work with the nurses, like you had three months working with nurses and then later you had internships with the doctors. And I remember that, even when I was very early in my studies, I was working in a really nice clinic that was integrative medicine and so they did acupuncture and they did all these natural, and I could really identify with that. 

18:06

But the nurses then told me you really, you have no filters. You need to build this wall so that things don't get to you as much. Because I was there and my heart was open and I didn't know how to deal with all these emotions. And they noticed it and they said, oh, you will not be able to work if you keep being like that and part of me was yeah, I think so too. I was okay, but I don't want to build walls. I want to feel what is going on, like what do I do? Do I build walls? Do I feel too much? And I think, in some ways, the more we have ourselves, we can have empathy, but not suffer with patients. That's something important that I learned, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to do the work that I do or still do. But at the same time, I don't think it's a good idea to build the wall, even today. We're humans. We always feel. We're energetically connected. We always feel how other people are feeling, even though we maybe block it out from our minds, but our body knows. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 19:16

So what would you say to a young person who's thinking of studying medicine or who is even in medical school already and finding themselves in that place where everything is intense. They're feeling all these things. They don't know what to do with all these feelings and the advice generally is medicate yourself or learn to control it or shut it down. What would you say to somebody? 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 19:37

I think I would say that it's definitely a good idea to first take your feelings seriously, to not think, okay, now I'm crazy or I'm overreacting. 

19:49

Really take yourself and your feelings seriously. And then what really helped me during that time also is, I started to meditate and did embodiment meditations, and did that not only by myself at home. I think I would have felt really lost then. But I found a group that was meditating and there were people who were open minded and who thought differently and that felt really good, like to connect with people who think the same way and don't think you're nuts, always good, and that was a big game changer for me. And also to find a balance in how much do you want to do for yourself and how much do you want to do for the studies, because you can always take a year longer when it is too overwhelming. But I was very strict with myself. No, no, I really want to get this done, I want to finally finish it. Now, looking back, I thought, okay, maybe I could have just taken a semester where I have like half of the things that come towards me, and then, yeah, okay, it takes half a year longer, but so what? 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 21:00

Yeah, I've often thought that that's something that should be considered quite seriously in the medical curriculum, that there's pressure for everybody to finish within a certain timeframe. And I mean it is a long degree, there are many years of study, so there is pressure to finish sooner rather than later. But I do think that for some people, extending or prolonging the journey could have enormous value and would allow for some of the inner work and some space to reflect on what you are seeing, what you are learning, what you are witnessing, so that you can hold it differently. 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 21:30

Yeah, what is important is that you really ask your soul. Maybe that sounds stupid, but that you really ask your soul. Is this my path? Because I think many people study medicine and maybe it's not their path. But when you ask your soul and your soul says yes, it is your path. It's a different feeling to study because you don't know what it's good for, that you have to suffer like that, but you will know. Okay, for some reason, in the end it will be good, because my soul said yes.

22:01

I remember this one time. Maybe that was the biggest game changer for me. I was at the beginning of my studies and I was in a really, really bad place on that day. It was like seven in the evening and I was going home from university. It was winter in Germany, when it's very cold and wet and it was raining, and I was under my umbrella and I started crying. I was so overwhelmed by my own state of mind. So I was walking home and usually I went through a park and it was too dark, so I didn't want to go through the park and so I said, okay, I'll just walk the streets and I was under my umbrella and saying, okay, please, God. 

22:39

At that time, I finally believed in God. Please, God, please give me a sign whether I should keep studying this bullshit or if I can finally leave. Maybe this was enough experience for me to actually be able to leave and do something creative that's more nurturing for myself. So I was walking home and I was waiting for the sign and I walked and I walked and after, I don't know, 20 minutes, I thought, well, I should be home by now. And so I looked underneath my umbrella and I had walked in a circle and I was standing in front of the university again. I got so lost and I was looking out like no I don't want to be standing here. Why? 

23:24

But there was my sign. So I have a very good orientation, so I always know where I am. On that day I walked in a circle and, yeah, I ended up where I started and I thought, okay, that's my sign. I don't know what it's good for, but that was like a really important thread during my studies because I always knew, I'm here for a reason. I don't know why, but at some point I will know. And of course, now, looking back, I know because I have found a place where I can really fully thrive and everything that I experienced was kind of like the path that I needed to be where I am. But at that time back then I couldn't see that. But it was good to have the faith. But that was really an important moment because I thought, okay, my soul is saying, or God, or whoever, is saying yeah, gotta be here. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 24:16

I do find myself wondering. You described yourself as quite a sensitive child who felt like she didn't really belong in the world that she was living in, a child who was having dreams that predicted the future. What took you to medical school? Why medicine? 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 24:31

Yeah, that was kind of a weird story because I always wanted to be an actress and I wanted to do something that was feeling so good, acting. I acted during high school and that felt so creative and I could feel myself and I could have different roles and I just loved that. And then there came the time where you had to apply to universities to study acting and suddenly, really it did not feel right and I had a very important dream. Once again in my life I had a dream where I received basically a warning offthat acting path, and since I had come to trust my dreams, it felt suddenly very wrong to do that. And then I didn't know what else to do because from seven to 18, I only wanted to act, so I didn't know what else was out there. And then I had my final exam in high school and in Germany it's very important. The grades that you get there is kind of, that is really deciding what path you can do. And so I was very nervous because I thought, okay, this is really determining my future. 

25:41

And because I was so nervous, my mom took me to our Chinese medical doctor, which was also not spiritual for my family. It was medical. And he did acupuncture with me and had these Chinese herb teas and something very spectacular happened. I was suddenly able to study the things that I had to study because I was really blocked before. I was so scared that nothing went into my head and suddenly I was relaxed and I could study. And then the exams came and I was always very fearful. I was horrified in exams. I was always the night before I couldn't sleep, when I was in the exams I was scared. 

26:25

And then something happened that really blew my mind. I was sitting in these final exams and I had lots of fun doing them and I was completely relaxed and I thought, well, what is going on? And I knew it had to do with the Chinese medicine. And that was the moment where I thought, okay, this is so crazy, this is like something impossible happening. I really want to know how to do this and I want to help people experience this. What I have experienced right now. That was kind of my initial idea of becoming a medical doctor.

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host

You ended up studying Chinese medicine, didn't you?

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest

Not in university, but during the studies I had, like this clinic that I talked about, integrative medicine. I studied there and in China during my normal medical time. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 27:19

As I've been listening to you, this voice in the back of my head is going, so here we are, doctors, talking about soul and spirit and talking quite openly about trusting intuition and asking the soul for guidance, and I noticed my own little flutter of anxiety that that's not something I would normally do so easily or so openly in a medical setting. 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 27:44

I don't think I've ever told this story in any setting. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 27:50

Right. Exactly. So how is it for you for us to be talking about that on a platform that is about doctors? 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 27:56

Maybe it's easier for me because it's in English. It's not like all my former bosses or whatever are going to listen to it. But at the same time, I do also feel this anxiety, but more like a tickling, because it's now the right time to do so. Now we have so many doctors that I feel are waking up and seeing things that are beyond the material, and I think when nobody has the guts - do they say that, the guts? Yeah, we do. Okay, good - to talk about it. Then I think we would let this opportunity go to change things, because now it feels like it's the right time to connect these two. Body and the mind, and the heart and the spirit. It just feels like it's right now. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 28:58

What do you think is making it right now? What's making it possible? Even just for you to be talking about this or for me to be asking about this? What do you think is facilitating that? 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 29:09

I think maybe the world has come to a point where the mind doesn't help enough anymore, like there's too much pain and too much suffering going on. I think they have tried everything to solve things just through the mind and have just met their boundaries. And I think it's very important that these boundaries are actually met, because that's when the magic starts. Even though in Germany it' said, I remember this one guy who studied with me. He was always like, yeah, you're this magical witch. Nobody believes you. And I was like, yeah, sometimes I feel like that too, but in the end, everyone that has met me, in the end, at some point in their life, they have actually opened up to spirituality, which was kind of interesting to me. 

30:00

I wasn't on a mission or anything, but they realized, okay, I'm sort of different. And then they started asking me and at the beginning it was like, yeah, right, but at some point in their life they were turning to me like, okay, what would you say about that? And I was like, yeah, well, I think your soul is saying you're not going that way. And they were like, okay, and then for some reason they started into different directions Some went into ? and some went into natural medicine. Even in psychotherapeutical areas there's more openness, I would say, to the spiritual world, because when you're working with the soul it's hard not to talk about the soul. So I already found an area where this could be more present. But even in the other areas it's starting, kind of breaking open in a way. 

Amy Kaye Other 30:52

How do you know that you are speaking to the soul and not to your ego? 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 30:59

That's a hard question. It's a tough one. I think many people get lost in their ego on their spiritual path. But I think there is a difference, like a subtle difference that you can feel in your body and sometimes you know your ego would decide something. It has certain motivation, your ego. It wants success or it wants money or it wants whatever. It always wants something. And your soul, usually it doesn't want anything but that you're well, that you're on your path. It's a quiet feeling. It's like a peaceful, quiet feeling, whereas the ego is making a big fuss about it. The ego is doing like a party. Yes, I want to go there and this is my way and really projecting a lot of desires into that, whereas the soul gives just subtle information about okay, yeah, there's something opening up. It's like a flower. It's quiet. It's not a special flower. It's just a flower. It's just there. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 32:11

I would also go as far as saying that sometimes it's when the ego is going no, no, it can't be that. I don't want us to do that. That's the wrong thing. Stay where you are, stay safe. Often that's also, 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 32:29

Yeah, and the ego is so good at creating fears and worries and everything. When you're deciding out of a fear or out of trying to control something, you can be pretty sure it's the ego. 

Amy Kaye Other 32:43

We're here now, I might as well go with these questions, because I'm also going I don't know how these questions are going to land, but I'm going to follow them. Would you say that when the soul speaks, it feels a little bit like hindsight, like sometimes when you look back at a situation and it just all kind of falls together and you go, oh, now I see why that happened. It's just that feeling of everything just kind of softly lands. It's like very subtle. Things almost happen and you don't even notice them happening. And then you turn around in your life and look and go, oh, that happened. I didn't like force anything, I didn't orchestrate anything. It just, it all worked the way it was meant to work. It's a different energy. 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 33:25

Yeah, I think that's a good description. It's something even that you can physically feel like something is relaxing. Okay. 

Amy Kaye Other 33:35

I think I'm also asking those questions because, from my perspective, somebody who is very much, I live in my mind, I don't live in my body. So I think it would be very difficult for me to recognize stuff in my body. And so I'm thinking how would I know? Because if I can't let my mind take control, what else can I connect to to feel that this is the right thing? 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 33:57

That's the entry point, is that question. If I can't let my mind dictate what else is available to me, where do I go? What else can I trust, what else can I listen to? And, as Gianna was saying, you know, so often life has created situations where the soul is kind of outside the body and we cut off from the neck down. So that journey of beginning to re-engage the senses, begin to start feeling, and often in the early stages, certainly for me, it was a lot of grief, it was all the emotions I hadn't wanted to feel for many, many years. And one needs support to do that. It's not easy to do that alone. 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 34:37

I wouldn't have been able to do it on my own. Yeah, especially when you're going this way back into your body. There's this reason why you haven't done that before. There's so much fear of these emotions. Because in psychotherapy we say, and I think it's very true, that as a child there's certain emotions that are so overwhelming that we don't have the tools to work with them, so we store them somewhere in the basement. And when we're adults we still think, oh, these feelings are still so overwhelming, we better don't touch them. 

35:18

And I think that's where coaches, psychotherapists, come in and say, okay, I'm here, you're not alone, we can together, feel, get in touch with these emotions, one at a time. The soul always lets only that much out as you can deal with, and okay, but we are here in this together. And I think that's the most important part, very often as a coach or as a therapist, that you say, okay, I'm there, we're in this together. And of course, the coach or your therapist usually knows, or should have walked that path already. So it can be like a what is it called? Thing that stands in the ocean? The anchor? Like a lighthouse. The lighthouse, yes. So, okay, go this way. Or don't go to the cliffs. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 36:06

I find myself wondering if we should talk about what we mean when we say soul. Or would that be to get too intellectual about this? 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 36:15

Oh, that's an interesting question. I don't even know if words can describe it. 

Amy Kaye Other 36:27

I also want to say that when you both were mentioning about the fear around talking about spirituality as medical doctors and this background and I understand the way that you were taught, this is just an absolute no-no. That is not what we're talking about and that's all the woo-woo stuff. And the woo-woo stuff is, that's even taboo. Still now, you just look crazy if you talk about it. Yeah, but I'm thinking back to, like people that I've seen for medical reasons and man, it would have been nice to have had somebody, human to human, go yes, you can take this medicine and you can try this thing, but actually just have a human conversation and go, maybe we can look at it in an alternative way. 

37:08

And I was always looking for answers and they couldn't give me the answers because the answers were always textbook and textbooks weren't working because it was a spiritual problem, not a medical problem. And even, I'm thinking now of somebody I went to who does alternative healing. I was trying to ask, so how do you do this work, because it's very different to anything I've ever done before, and how do you know and how do you do this? And he said actually, he said he knows he's doing the work, when he doesn't know what he's doing, when he goes beyond what he knows. 

37:39

It's in the unknown that the real work is happening, in the uncertainty. That's where the magic really happens, and I thought that was so beautiful. Because of the way you've been taught, obviously, when you go to medical practitioners, there's always that ego and there's always like, follow these steps, this is the textbook and this will make you right, and I've learned on an intuitive level that isn't going to be the answer, and then I get frustrated. So I think it's really brave and I think it's really powerful and I think it's awesome that you're having this conversation. I feel completely yes, it's happening. Yes, go for it. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 38:16

But, you know, I think there's also cellular memory. I mean, if we go right back with the history of medicine, when Descartes wanted to dissect human bodies, he made an arrangement with the Catholic Church that the church and state, body and spirit, would be separated. These things did not belong together, and so there's that. And if we think about the sort of cellular memory of witches being burned at the stake, I really do believe the legacy of those experiences and things that have happened in the world still resonate through the generations and affect what we say and what we are willing to risk. 

38:53

One of the reasons I started this podcast, you know this, Gianna, this is why you're chatting to me today, was because I wanted to start shifting perceptions of medicine and of doctors and of who we are, and I know that you share that desire with me and that there is something about that vulnerability of stepping outside the mainstream and saying well, actually, this is what I believe. Actually, this is who I am. Actually, this has been my experience after many years of working with people, even when the evidence hasn't yet supported that and I say hasn't yet, very clearly, because I think we're a long way off from understanding healing in the real sense of the word, and one of the things you spoke to me about last time was kind of the foundations upon which Western medicine was built in Germany and how you feel like that still plays out in how people are treated in the medical system. Do you want to say a bit more about that? 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 39:52

In the medical system in Germany it's very common that the doctor and the patient are not on par with each other. This is saying it's like these godlike doctors and these patients. They're just regular people. They're not health gods like the doctors are, and that creates such a dependence. Also, like you as a patient, I mean, you're desperate when you go to the doctor. You wouldn't go to the doctor if you had rules to help yourself. So you're, of course, you want that that doctor knows something better than you, and I think it's good when the doctor knows what he's doing. 

40:34

But usually everything the patient says won't even be heard anymore. A patient says, for example, this doesn't feel right to me. Well, but that's the guideline. Well, if you want to be healthy again, you should take that medicine. They get angry, pissed off by these patients that say, well, I do want a different way or whatever, and they're really being forced to go a certain way. 

41:05

And, at the same time, things in medicine happen where doctors really don't behave like half gods. But very well, not, oh, how should I name that? Well, regular people with their mistakes and whatever. And they make mistakes and very few really stand up for them and say well, I made a mistake, I'm sorry. Very often they just act like they hadn't made a mistake and that creates even more this picture of these doctors that never fail and that know things best. 

41:41

And personally, I have many friends who aren't in the medical field, but they had very strong intuition and so when they went to doctors they felt so unseen and so devaluated. They didn't feel appreciated or they felt like something was kind of pushed over their boundaries the whole time. And there could have been a doctor who said, okay, well, you don't want to go that path, either I'm not the right person then to accompany on that way. That would have been a good answer, if it's true. Or he could have said well, what do you think? You know, even this question of what do you feel, what do you think you need? The person that comes to the doctor actually is the expert. I think self-empowerment is something very important because it really helps you heal. When you give away all of your responsibility to the doctor, you stop being connected to your own healing process and then you're very dependent on what the doctor says, and I think that's not contributing to well-being or to the healing of the patient. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 42:53

How does one know that one's soul is outside one's body and if you discover that, how do you come back? 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 43:05

The funny thing is, I think, when I was giving a seminar and I described how it felt for me, there was a woman that sort of said, I have that too. And suddenly she knew, she realized, okay, this is my problem. That's really why, she was a coach and she felt like she couldn't get ahead on her own. She felt always like I keep getting stuck in the same patterns. I know this so well. And once I described how it felt for me not to be connected to life and to not feel my emotions fully and not to feel my body, she said yeah, that's how I feel. 

43:41

And that was really interesting because we started working one-on-one together and so she started realizing how much that had kept her from her own life and how much she has blocked herself out the whole time. And the truth is, the path always goes through like what you said before, Maria, through the pain. It's the painful process that starts right then, and we did a lot of inner child work, for example, that helped her, and we also took situations that were happening in that moment. For example, relationship things, and we associated them with her childhood experiences that were just happening all over again, and through getting in touch with these childhood trauma or childhood conflicts or childhood sadness that she had when her parents separated, through that, all the emotions that were stored in the basement automatically came up and she felt more and more in her body. Also, what was interesting, she has an ADHD mind and that also started settling down. Also something that I experienced. I always describe it as very airy. 

44:57

I had that idea and I couldn't get them down to earth. Okay, all these great ideas, but nothing of that is actually happening, because I don't know which ones to prioritize, I don't know the steps to do, and that was one of the symptoms, I would say. What helped you to come back into your body? 

45:13

I think, going through the pains as well. I think once you have started walking that path back, there is no turning back because you just feel, okay, I have to do this, this is the way to go. And that actually helps, because it's not nice. You want to go back, but it's not, like something inside you is not letting you go back. I always do this exercise with my clients where you face two different paths ahead of you and there's this one path that you know very well. You know it's the comfortable path, every flower along the way and once you walk that path, you do feel kind of okay, there's this gray feeling. It's not like tense or it's just like, okay, well, I know this. It feels comfortable because I know it, but it's not the place where I'm thriving or happy. 

46:07

And then there's this unknown path, like foggy, and you can't see where your next step is going to land. And so in your imagination, you go on that path and you feel like, oh, okay, this is scary. And you're like, okay, yeah, it's always scary when you walk a new path, but maybe it can be also exciting. Can it be exciting? Yeah, okay, well, then take a step. And then you feel like, okay, this feels a little better under my feet. I still can't see, but it's okay. And then the further you go on that path, oh, this is how it can feel to be alive, that's great. Then it's easier to decide, because our patterns or our ego always wants to go to the path that you know. You want to do old relationships that you've known, you want to recreate your parents' relationship in a way, or your relationship to your parents, but it's not helping you, it's not making you grow. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 47:09

You reminded me of a workshop I participated in many years ago and one of the things we did on that workshop was a visualization exercise. But we first had to each take a handful of sand out of a bucket and it was soil. It was beautiful, dark, rich, fertile soil. And the meditation was a guided sort of visualization to put roots down into the earth. And that was the moment I discovered that my soul was not in my body, because during the meditation I had this moment of feeling like I had fallen and landed. 

47:44

That for the first time I had actually landed on the earth. That until then I had been suspended out there outside of my body and at the time I was already about 34, 35. It was my first experience of very severe burnout. I had closed my practice and taken a year off to heal and to feel and all of that. And this workshop was a workshop where we were learning about body-based therapies and practices and that experience, which I mean, it had never occurred to me before that I lived outside of my body. But after that, I remember going into the bathroom and walking in and looking at myself in the mirror and realizing that for the first time, I was actually looking at myself from inside my body, not from outside. But That then, whenever I had looked at myself in the mirror, it was actually almost like a third-person perspective. 

Amy Kaye Other 48:37

Wow. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 48:38

I've never told anyone that story before. 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 48:42

Yeah, I could so relate. I remember when I had, you know, imagining just having that soil in my hand, I would have had no connection to that. They're like oh, I guess that's soil. What is roots? I don't know, I'm not a tree. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 48:57

On your website you speak about helping people know their own unique transformative medicine. Can you say more about that? 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 49:11

Where do I start? I strongly believe that we all are here for a certain reason and that we all have like a unique healing power or a transformative energy that we bring along. And mostly we're not aware of that, especially we ourselves, but many times the people around us can see it and they mirror it back to us and we're like, oh really, do I really make you feel calm Because we feel ourselves? We feel like, oh, we're so innerly, we're so up and down. We're not aware of the way we make people feel wand work with us. And I think, especially when we're in a company, if we're a leader or if we're a coach, I think it's very important to know what is the energy, actually your medicine, that you bring. And it's so beautiful, like in indigenous people or cultures there is this saying that everyone has her own medicine that he brings to the tribe, band I mean we have big tribes nowadays, but I still think that we all have this certain medicine that we carry and I think it's very, very important that we feel it and I think we can feel it. 

50:36

The one thing that I always find so beautiful, like the first time when we realize what our medicine actually is and we can bathe in it ourselves. That is such magic. Like, every time when I do these seminars and then I invite the people to bathe in their own medicine, it's like, wow, why haven't I done that before? This is how we nurture ourselves. This is our energy. We deliver it to the outside, usually, whether consciously or subconsciously. you know, we give it away, but we never actually get an idea of how it is to give it to ourselves, and I think it's very important that we give it to ourselves first, before we work with people and to refill our batteries, to be in touch with ourselves, with our soul, with our heart, really helps. It's like having a big coat around and you're like, okay, that's my best to be in that. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 51:39

So I could hazard a guess, because I can sense and feel it in your presence. But I'm curious about how you would describe your own unique medicine?, my medicine. 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 51:48

MThere's a lightness, like a sparkleness, like it's kind of jumpy, but it's also hopeful. But it's at the same time now, now that I'm rooted in myself, it's also calm and peaceful., like I know that people can really relax around me. And what I didn't know, but what has been told to me many times is that when I speak with people, they feel like everything's possible, likthey get this feeling of okay, why should I not be able to do this? So they get in touch with what is possible beyond my boundaries, and I think that's also what I experience. Maybe that's why I can give it more. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 52:35

I find myself wanting to ask you about some of the things we discussed last time. I don't want to force a conversation about things that are not relevant to where we are today, because today is a new conversation. There were two stories you shared with me, and maybe I can ask the question in the form of some of the things that stand out for you. You mentioned at the very beginning that one of the turning points was when you realized that there were limitations to the medical model in terms of what it could do with mental health. When we spoke a few weeks ago, you also told me about your experience as an exchange student in the US and how that opened certain doors and possibilities in your heart and mind, and you shared a story about an incident that happened when you were a young surgical intern and witnessed your colleagues making certain medical choices that were troublesome for you. Would you tell us those stories? 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 53:28

When I was 16, I had the opportunity to be a foreign exchange student in America and that was really, up to this day, one of the most important experiences for me, because I, for once, I really got in touch with something I would really call God. I told you before that the religious things were never very welcome in my family and I got in touch with a friend in America, I got to know a friend, and she believed in God and I told her about experiences that I've had in my life and she said, well, yeah, why don't you think it's God, why? So that was kind of like, okay, okay, For the first time in my life I could get these experiences that I had, in a certain context, and I could trust them even more because it's like, okay, this is what it is, so I could give that a name, basically. And there were also in America, never in my life before happened so many things that. The day before I thought about something and the next day they happened. That was also, I don't know what was that about, but in America it was, 

54:35

I didn't have an easy time there because I had trouble with my host mother, so it was also a lonely time, and it was also a time where I was doubting myself and doubting my communication skills, of course. But at the same time I had lots of time where I could write down my feelings and my thoughts and I spent a lot of time with myself and that created a new space for me. I had never in my life had to be by myself so much and I had to rely on myself so much, and that really helped me also to get along with me and with everything that I do. And the thing was also, while I was in Germany I always felt a little different. I wasn't interested in the same things that others were, and in America it was funny, because it was so obvious that I was different, that I could belong. It was clear that I wouldn't fit in completely, but that's why I fit in. They just accepted me being different because I was from a different country and I was so integrated and I had so many friends that until this day I'm still in touch with, even though they say, oh yeah, well, Americans are so superficial and when you're there they're friends and when you're gone they're not. It's not my experience, and I still get goosebumps when I think about it because it was a really new experience for me of, okay, being different is okay and even on the other side of the world I can meet people and be with people that are just like me. 

56:22

A friend of mine she was my creative writing teacher and we still send each other packages every Christmas and for birthdays and we're still so close and we shared this passion for writing. She had German roots, her mother was German, and I met her whole family and that was such a strong connection. She was also the one who said, well, why don't you think it's God? And she influenced me so deeply. It was sort of a spiritual awakening for me. Also, the feeling that there is a family beyond the family and it doesn't have to be the people in your country. We said last time when we met, it was like, okay, there's a soul related to me, there's a family soul, there's a sister soul and for some reason, my experience, they're not always in the same country. More seldom in my own country, which makes the world to me more familiar and smaller, and I love that. I love that connection of souls in other countries. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 57:20

I had a conversation with one of the previous guests on the show recently and she was like, I want to meet all these people. Can you do a podcast where we all meet each other? Because I didn't know there were so many people who think the same way that I do. And it was interesting for me because what we, I think, all have in common, certainly so far, is that we are outliers in some way or another. We all allow ourselves the space to talk about medicine a little bit differently or have had some kind of experience that has shaped how we see the world or how we see medicine in unique ways, and it doesn't matter what the gender is or what the language is or what the country is. There's this common experience of being human that we can relate to, and I love that. 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 58:05

Yeah, yeah. Well, like you said before in the circle, or like we said last time, oh, I didn't know you had a daughter. Yeah, well, nobody cares about like the basic life facts. It's just like, oh yeah, my heart is next to yours. Yes, it is, I can feel that. 

58:21

And yeah, it's just connecting on a different level. And usually I think that's also what happens is, maybe even if I was in my area and I would invite people to speak less or connect less from their minds but more from their hearts, maybe I would have the same experiences as I have in Corfu. I don't know, but it seems like they're not as open as when you go to seminars all over the world. But yeah, I think it's just a different level of connection when you connect through the heart or where you connect in this I would actually call it like a soul space. Of course we have the mind there too, but it's more like we don't focus on it as much. We focus on the emotional area or the soul area. You want me to talk about the other experience too, right? I don't know if it's so uplifting because it's such a terrible story in a way. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 59:23

Well, I think it links to, you know, when we finished our conversation last time, you said to me, can we also talk about our shared vision for medicine? Can we articulate a vision for medicine? Even as we are speaking today, I feel like, in some sense, the things that we are talking about, the way that we are allowing ourselves to talk about soul and spirit, but also the shared movement into the coaching space, which is about allowing people to be more equal, is part of my vision, certainly for a different kind of medicine in the future. And that story that you told me about that patient's experience and what you witnessed senior colleagues, who were your teachers and your mentors, doing, I think is such an important one, because it's what makes it harder for young doctors to step forward and be open about what they really believe and what they see. So if you're willing to tell the story. 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 01:00:23

Yes, okay. Yeah, in that context I will. Yeah, I had a really frustrating experience in my last year of studying medicine. I was in a surgical what is it called? In German it's called station, I don't know if it's. Rotation, or. Maybe it's just called clinic in America? And I had basically like an internship. So we worked there and did easier things in the surgical tool things. And there was a doctor and I had heard before, fortunately I wasn't there when it happened, but a friend of mine heard before. She was in that surgery while it happened and she had told me, oh, something happened during that surgery. And I was like, what? And she said, well, the doctor cut the arteria that's going to testicles. Is it called testicles or testicles? Yes, and so he cut that arteria, that, helping them be alive. And I was like, and then what happened? Was it repaired? And she's like, no, they couldn't because they didn't have the right surgeon for that. And I was like, oh, my God. And I said, well, how did the patient react? And she said, well, they didn't tell him. I was like, okay, so maybe it's going to happen today when I'm going from room to room, the doctors, and they always ask what is it called in English? The ward round? Okay, so we were on the ward round and I thought, okay, well, now he's going to tell. And I asked the doctor even so, how are you going to tell him that, you know, you cut his arteria? And he's like, I'm not going to tell him. Why? And he said, well, he will notice when the testicle turns black. Oh, no wait, he is black, so maybe he won't notice. 

01:02:08

I remember that my heart was like dropping down into my belly. It was like so shocked. I was shocked that he wouldn't tell him and I was shocked that he was even making a racist joke about it. I remember I just burned white as a wall and I was freezing and like my whole body was freezing. And I remember that I kept walking while we were going towards that room where the patient was. He was standing, you know, chatting with him like how are you doing and is everything okay? And the patient said, well, it's painful. And he's like, oh well, that's going to be fine, a couple of days, and I was standing there, I was like, I couldn't move. I was like the whole energy had left my body and I was again floating above that scene. I was like, how can that be? And I was just so disillusioned in that moment and I remember walking out of that and I think the only thing that I could do was like, okay, I think I need to go home for today. 

01:03:09

And the doctors, fortunately didn't care, so I just took my stuff and went home and I was very tormented because I thought, okay, am I going to tell either the patient or the boss? And the tragic of that situation was that they had a very choleric boss, so everyone was scared of him. And that was, I think, the reason why he didn't tell the patient, because then they would have told the boss and he would have gotten in trouble. And so I thought, okay, am I going to tell the boss, am I going to tell the patient? And the problem with that was that the doctor who had made that mistake of cutting the arteria was supposed to be in my final exam, like he would be testing me, and I didn't know what to do. And I still don't know what I would have done today. 

01:03:57

I mean, of course, everything in me would be like, okay, I have to tell, I have to tell, but I didn't have the courage to do so because I thought, what if he's going to make me fail? All those six years of studying medicine would have been gone like that, and I had like a compromise in my mind that I would maybe go and tell the boss after the exam. And then the thing that I remember the most was that I decided that I would never be like that. I was really, okay, thank you for showing me what kind of doctor I don't want to be. 

01:04:36

And the other thing was that it did shake my belief in the medical system. It did Because I thought, okay, if something like that can happen. And the weirdest thing was he wasn't alone on this ward. There were a couple of doctors around him and they were laughing at his joke. Everyone was covering him and everyone acted like this was normal. I think that was the thing that shook me the most, because I thought, well, if this is normal, something is very wrong with our system. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 01:05:13

Mm-hmm so you never told?

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 01:05:21

I think I told an assistant doctor, I think I told him and whom I knew, that he was in the position of being able to talk to the boss or whatever. I think I told him and I trusted him, so I don't know if it ever got to the boss actually. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 01:05:46

Interesting. It's so interesting for me the dilemma of hierarchies and the power differential. There's the doctor and the patient hierarchy, which is an obvious one, and the power differential that was at play in this particular situation. But then, medical student in their final year, with the consultants and the professors, and not having a voice in that, because they also have power over you in that they get to determine whether you can pass or fail an exam, and the sort of moral dilemma of holding the space of witnessing things that are not okay, whether they are racism, sexism, violation of patients rights, but then also having the courage to come forward when there might be consequences in that hierarchy is so challenging. 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 01:06:26

Especially, I think that's also the reason why I didn't tell the boss, but another assistant doctor, was that I have had experiences before that were terrible by telling things. I just remember that when I wrote my doctor's essay, my thesis yes, there was a really bad situation going on with my colleague and I was in good touch with this department, and so I stepped in for him and I said well, they're really sabotaging him, they're not putting the key in the right place, so he can't work, and told my professor, who was also his doctor father. And then the professor glared at me and he's like, so you think you're in the position of telling me that? And I was like well, if something that is not right is happening, well, yeah, I think I am in the position of telling you that. And he was like no, I think you have taken the wrong sides here. And afterwards I found out there's always these weird connections that go on behind the scenes and there was a lot of trouble that I didn't know about and he thought I was on the side of some woman who had given him a hard time. But I was just trying to step in for my colleague. And after that experience I felt like, okay, maybe it's better not to talk to the bosses. They're so much higher in their hierarchy and they feel undermined by what we say. And because we're just the small students, especially as women, I always felt like, yeah, you're just the assistant doctor or whatever. And that was kind of the thing that woke me up from okay, I have to do it a different way. If I complain, or if I see something, either it's not worth it, you will run against walls anyway. Well then, after five times you don't do it anymore. And there were so many things also during the medical studies where things were just not fair and at some point you just say, okay, I don't care anymore, I'll just want to get it done, because you won't stop fighting until you're done. And that was. I was so happy, I was over, I was just so happy. 

01:08:39

Later on, when I worked in the clinics, it was a little different. There was still the hierarchies, the boss. Also. I remember a time, because I wasn't a student anymore, I was a doctor working. I didn't have a specification, but I was like a normal ward doctor in the psychotherapeutical setting and I had a boss who was trying. I had a patient who was an alcoholic. And she said, well, I don't drink anymore. 

01:09:07

And I took a test, saying that she does still drink. And I told my boss and I said, well, what are we going to do? And he said, well, we're not going to tell her because she was trying to get her driver's license back. And I said, well, but we can't do that. You know she will get her driver's license back even though she's still drinking. I can't do that. And he said well, we will do that and you will treat her depression. And I was like, I can't do that. 

01:09:34

First of all, all the rules say, okay, you first have to treat the addiction and then afterwards you have to treat the other diseases that are underneath that. But if there is an addiction going on, there's no use in treating the other. And he said, well, but you're going to do that. And I was like I can't do that and we have to put it in the. 

01:09:54

When patients leave the house, they always get like a letter. And I said, well, we have to put it in the letter because they will have to know from this thing where she gets her driver's license. And he said no. And she said well, you're going to treat this patient and I said well, but you can't force me to do that, I'm not going to do that. I cannot lie to that patient, I cannot lie in the letter, I'm not going to do that. And afterwards our relationship was completely destroyed. He said, well, this will have consequences. And he took every opportunity that he had to make my life even harder. And the funny thing was that he always said well, I believe you that you don't drink, and really lying to her. It was a complete theater. I think after two weeks she came back to the ward and she was completely drunk. She was dismissed, but still there was no word of it in the letter. In the letter they were saying well, because of personal incidents, we had to dismiss her whatever. Yeah, so it still, unfortunately, happened. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 01:11:01

You've completely deregistered now as a medical doctor in Germany, right. What made you make that decision? 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 01:11:09

I felt like the system, even though it's not obviously limiting you, it's kind of energetically limiting me, you know, because I had always had clients that I'd treated or worked with beside the system and I always felt like there were so many more things happening there. I felt more free and I also felt that they took more self-responsibility from not being in the system, and that was the reason why I said, okay, I'm better off without the system. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 01:11:50

How would you describe what you do today? 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 01:11:53

I think I'm a regular coach that is helping people get in touch with their emotions, their intuition, and I think my main focus is also on self-empowerment, because I think that's the only way how we can really be ruler of our life again. And I think maybe because I've had so many experiences where I felt powerless and this is a very important aspect. To feel like you always have a choice and you decide, and it's not being decided over you, and I think really great things can happen when you take control. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 01:12:36

I love that. I'm also thinking about how people will assume that as a doctor, you have power, and actually, certainly my own experience, has been that often I felt most powerless in the medical system. I was restricted in terms of what was possible, what I could say, what I could do, what I could offer, and stepping sideways in terms of my journey with integrative medicine opened the door to other things. But I always felt like I was treading this very careful tightrope of what could potentially get me into trouble and what wouldn't. And then later, when I studied coaching. Even today, I'm registered with the coaching body, officially, and I'm also registered with the Medical Professions Council still., But I also know that if anyone ever came up with some kind of complaint, I would be judged based on my medical qualification. And it would be considered outside my scope of practice to be doing all these other things that I'm doing, that I really do believe are making a difference and are helping people to heal. So it's such an interesting thing that there's this public perception of the godlike power of the doctor, which is something about the fact that we do work with life and death and we can hold death literally in our hands, sometimes with our surgeons. 

01:13:50

When we last spoke, Gianna shared with me that she used to get dizzy in theatre and I was like, oh, I've found my soulmate, because I was like that. There was no way I could ever have been a surgeon. 

01:14:01

I was always so flaky in a theatre. The sight of blood would make me nauseous and I'd get shaky and I'd want to faint. But this idea that we have this power, and then, for many of us, I won't say for all of us, because I think there are some who do feel powerful, but for me certainly it was a journey of “sjoe”. This label, this identity, actually makes me feel trapped and confined and powerless, because there's such strict rules about who I'm supposed to be. Not only in medical perception but also in the public's perception, and such strict rules about what is considered acceptable for me to say or to do or to feel or to think if I'm the doctor. 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 01:14:52

You made a post about that on Instagram and that's how we actually got in touch again, because you said well, many times I feel so pushed into a certain role and I don't know. I feel the same way. Sometimes I just made myself smaller because I didn't want this, to be this distance doctor, which wasn't a good solution. But yeah, I think when you have so much prejudice coming towards you, whether it's good or bad, it's hard to be yourself. Always have to like navigate around these preset minds around being an a doctor. I think it's like, on the good part, I mean, I think being a doctor also means that you do feel called to help other people and you do feel a certain responsibility for the world. At least I feel that way. 

01:15:28

And you feel like, okay, you do want to make a difference and I think that's also part, you know, when you think about the vision of how a medical system could look like. I want doctors to be known for that and not because they're god-like creatures who know it all best. No, but they want to help and they have an idea, but it's not being pushed on somebody, but, yeah, they're there. And also the students in my class that I didn't like, they do have a capacity that I feel like they're willing to accompany people on their path. They have that capacity and they have the will, but many times the system won't even give them the time. I don't know how it is in South Africa, but 80% of my work was organization and writing and I wish it had been with the patients and really accompanying them on their way, but it was more secretary stuff. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 01:16:25

Bureaucracy and administration. So let's talk about your vision for the future of medicine or the future doctor. 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 01:16:35

Yes, I would love that. I think the first thing that needs to change is really that the patients - to really empower them again to trust themselves. I think that's also a doctor's job, to empower them and then to look for the ways that are maybe not guidelines, but that are there, that are out there, that are possible. I remember working in Switzerland a couple of months and I was working in an anthroposophic clinic and the doctors there they had sometimes patients and the patient said, well, but can you talk about that decision with my healer? And the doctor said, yes, of course, we’ll call your healer. So the doctors called the healer and they came to a good decision and they talked with the patients about it. And then the patient said yeah, that's a good idea, so it was fine to have a healer and the doctors actually talked to the healer and listened and they would work together hand in hand, and that's something I would picture. 

01:17:40

I think doctors are very afraid to lose their power. Like, in Germany we have healing practitioners that are not doctors. They have like a very basic education about diseases and stuff, but very often they're very good at natural healing techniques. I've met, personally, I've met very many good healing practitioners. The doctor's like, oh yeah, they're just healing practitioners, and that's so sad, because I think it could be. We all have the same goal. We want to heal, and it's not about who is the best healer, but it seems like this is the battle right now, like who is the best, who can heal? Okay, no, only the doctors can heal.

 Dr Maria Christodoulou Host

 It's who's right and who's wrong.

 Dr Gianna Brummer Guest

 Yeah, not even that, not even the best. It's just like, yeah, you're wrong, we're right and we're going to do it. And if the patient dies, well, yeah, well, then there was no other way. 

01:18:33

I would love that, if the minds would shift to having different perspectives. Just sit at a table and talk about it. How do you see cancer? Sometimes I have patients who have medical, like physical problems, and very often we see, okay, there's a mental problem, like a spiritual problem behind it, and that has helped so many people because it feels like it's actually solvable, it's controllable in a way. 

01:19:03

Don't feel like, okay, there's something in my body happening and I don't have power over it. I feel powerless because it's doing what it wants to and I have no access. And there is actually access to that and I think it would just empower people to know that. And if just every patient with a physical disease had a psychotherapist come over and say, well, yeah, you know what's maybe the problem behind it, what has happened in the last couple of years or months? I think that would help a lot too. Spirit and body, if they had the right to be together again, like you said before. You know, like the separation of the spirit and the body was the root of being separate. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 01:19:48

Anything we haven't spoken about that you want to talk about? 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 01:19:50

No, I think I want to hear your vision. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 01:19:56

My vision. I feel like your patient that you described earlier. We're on a path that is not yet known and it's foggy, but I feel like I have to just keep walking the path and that any ideas I might share about what it could look like in the future would be my ego's wishes and hopes and expectations. I don't know. There's almost… There's something about just trusting the part of me that said the first step on my path is to start having these conversations, and what I'm discovering in each conversation is that little piece of each person that I'm talking to that is unique, and I'm being reminded of my own uniqueness in each conversation, like that little story that I hadn't thought about for a long time or that memory that I've forgotten. 

01:20:43

I want to see a world where doctors and patients are not in an adversarial power struggle, where we recognize the impact of environment and community on health and healing, where we don't pathologize individual patients and where you're not either the doctor or the patient, but we are human beings having a shared experience, and sometimes my knowledge is of value to you and sometimes I have to trust and listen to your wisdom and your experience, and we are a part of a greater whole and that whole is in an interdependent relationship with us, and so if I'm out of order, we are out of order and the environment is out of order, and I've said it before, I think in one of the conversations, but years ago I read something Mark Hyman had written. 

01:21:35

He's a functional medicine expert and it was about women's health in particular, and he was asking the question of why so many women were struggling with hormonal issues ranging from premenstrual tension to hormonal cancers and the wide spectrum of problems that women are dealing with in-between, and he said that we understand the hormonal system to be one of interrelatedness, one that is in constant dialogue with the environment and the community. Women's bodies are like the canary in the coal mine that are warning us that we are running out of oxygen, and all we're doing is putting oxygen masks on the canary. 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 01:22:13

Yeah. Oh, such a powerful picture. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 01:22:14

So for me there's like, I even notice as I'm speaking, almost a frustration and an impatience and some rage about us learning how to do this differently. Then there's also a trust. The state of the world is such that it can only go in a different direction, and I don't know what that direction is, but I do think it begins with an acknowledgement of shared humanity and vulnerability and not-knowing and uncertainty, and admitting that we make mistakes, that we don't have all the answers. So in the same way that we have to be vulnerable and drop that idea that maybe we have all the answers or that evidence-based medicine is going to provide all the answers, I think patients also need to drop the idea that somewhere out there there's a doctor who's going to find the solution and who's going to fix their problem for them, because there are some things maybe that can't be fixed. 

01:23:20

I actually had a conversation with a client yesterday and she was very angry about things that had happened to her in the medical system, that had felt like a violation, and she was angry with herself that she had given away her power to these doctors and that she had trusted their wisdom over her own wisdom and she was holding it very much in the space of, it's my fault. 

01:23:41

I should never have abandoned myself, I should never have let go of myself. And then, as I started suggesting that there was a bigger context here, that there were things going on in the environment. She trusted a psychiatrist for a mental health issue. Logically that would make sense. And to move through that anger there had to be a point of saying perhaps the medical system doesn't know how to address this kind of issue. So we can either go you're the baddie or we can go the doctor is the baddie, but somewhere in-between, none of us want to be vulnerable, none of us want to be wrong, none of us want to admit that we don't always have the answer for suffering, because there's enormous vulnerability in that. 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 01:24:25

Yeah, it is, and I think that's also part of the system that we have right now is that so many decisions are based on fear, especially in the medical system and especially in psychotherapy. I've experienced that when doctors felt powerless, when they didn't know what to do, they would prescribe medication and they thought, okay, that will do it. And then the patients were sitting there with their medication and thinking, well, this doesn't feel good. It cuts me off from my emotions. And doctors were saying, no, no, it's helping. It's the only thing that's actually helping. And the moment when they feel powerless, I think I sat there so many times and I thought, oh, just say, I don't know how long you're going to take, I don't know how long you're going to be in that state, but I'll be in there with you, I'll just be by your side. And it's painful right now and we will see where we're going to be at in a couple of weeks. 

01:25:29

And I think that would help so much more than to just quickly make changes to be on a functional level again. And I think that’s also part of a problem right now in the medical system is that, in Germany, it's rooted in making soldiers go back to war. This is how the medical system actually was created and it's a functionality, the goal. They didn't want to heal the soldiers. It's basically the same still today. You don't want to heal the patients in the system. No, you want to make them work again, make money again, and that's also a part I think. 

The money system sits on the medical system like a big hawk and says well, I know best and you better earn a lot of money or we'll close the clinics. That's what's happening right now in my area. I live in a more rural area and they close clinics one after the other. Also wards where women give birth. They close. They have to drive hundreds of kilometres to give birth, and so I think the money that is… it's so intertwined with money interests right now that it can't be good for the patients. I think. Either the whole financial system runs into a wall sooner or later, which is possible, at least in Germany, or we need a different system that is taking care of the medical needs. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 01:27:08

You said earlier that you'd been through that time of feeling really desperate and wanting to leave university and give up medicine, and you walked in the rain and walked in a circle and found yourself standing in front of the university, and that that was a response to a question to your soul about what you needed to do next. What would you say today about why you had to do medicine? 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 01:27:34

I think I needed to find out actually what the problem is in the system, because I wouldn't have experienced it so intensely if I hadn't studied that and through that I could find my own way in what I personally think it needs. What does it need for patients to really heal, in contrast of what they do? 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 01:28:06

I love that. That makes a resonance inside of me, like something starts vibrating in response to that, because I think that's true for me too. I don't think anyone who hasn't been in the system can understand the full extent of the power of the system, but also the dysfunctionality of the system, and the value of the system because it has its place. 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 01:28:30

Yeah, and I think for some patients it's just exactly right. Patients that are so scared that they can’t take their own responsibility. For them, it's perfect, they feel safe. But I think there will be more and more people who want to make their own decisions and I think they're not being picked up by the system anymore, like the system is not ready for them. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 01:28:58

Exactly. Anything else you want to ask Amy? 

Amy Kaye Other 01:29:06

I'm just happy to be here. 

01:29:06

I'm grateful that this session happened and I'm grateful to both of you for being so open and so brave and surreal, and I can only imagine how terrifying it must be to speak this openly about these very woo-woo wacky, weird things that we're not supposed to talk about, all the judgments that might come with it, and that's a possibility, but I think it's not so much about that. 

01:29:29

I really, really have a deep sense that somebody somewhere in the world is going to hear this podcast and go finally, there's my tribe, there are my people, I'm not alone, and it's going to help them take the unknown path that they need to take. It's going to help them keep going, because the more we speak about who we really are and what we really feel, the more healing can happen. It's the ripple effect. That's what this is all about, and so thank you for throwing stones in the water and the ripple, I can see it. It's going to happen. So thank you. I just got like full body shivers now, so that's my sign that something's happening here. 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 01:30:07

Even if it helps just one person realize okay, I'm not connected to my body, I'm floating above this. Because I think many of the people that are not connected are very much needed and they can't come into their full power when they're floating above and I think that's so important that they come back home. 

Amy Kaye Other 01:30:29

It's often the healers are the ones that are told that there's something very wrong with them. And you've been told your whole life. Of course you're going to go, well, I’m out of here. See ya. And you go and you live outside your body because living in your body is too painful. It's too painful if you're constantly told there's something wrong with you. So if you don't live in your body, you don't have to feel the pain. Sometimes you do. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 01:30:51

I was going to say, I think there comes a point, and maybe it's as one gets older, because for me that was the case. As I got older and certainly around the menopausal time, not living in my body became more painful than living outside of my body. And I still. I do feel like I still flip in and out from time to time.

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest

Me too.

Amy Kaye Other 01:31:12

It's a coping mechanism. You do what you do to survive. The way to survive all of that trauma, all of that pain, and all that hurt, even as a child, was to leave the room metaphorically. Then you're not even conscious or aware that you're doing it. You're just on autopilot out of your body. 

01:31:30

But I think there also has to be a space with other people where you feel safe enough to come back into your body because you can try and do the embodiment work and you can try and come back in and you can try and be your authentic self. But if you do that and there's more shame and more judgment and all of that, it's really, really, really lonely and it's really tough. So it's understandable why we would not be living… Especially living on the planet in 2024 is really, really difficult. It's not a great time in humanity, because I think it's so… and this is a whole other conversation. But in terms of technology, in terms of the speed of things, in terms of how fast everything is now, if you're somebody who is highly sensitive, that's really tough because you're picking up on all of this excess energy and we don't know what to do with it. 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 01:32:24

Yeah, even more important to really get your roots down, because then otherwise you're so carried away by this fake world, and I think it's so true what you're saying. It's a terrifying time and at the same time it seems like okay, now it gets so tight, so being forced to move, basically to awaken, because we can't stand that pain anymore. It's getting so narrow inside our boxes that we just… Either we break them open or we, I don't know, probably die. It's a turning point in a way, and maybe that's also the… where you just said before, Maria, why is this now a special time? Maybe that is also part of it. Things are becoming possible because when the dark gets very strong, the light gets just as strong or even stronger. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 01:33:25

So if you could send a message out into the world in this moment for anyone who might be listening, what would you want to share? What would you want people to take from our conversation? 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 01:33:37

Well, what comes right now is like okay, we need you and want you here and you're important. You are important. Your unique thread is important. A bigger net that is changing the world. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 01:33:59

I'm so grateful for the web that brought us together in circle in Corfu. 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 01:34:07

Me too. I'm actually wearing my Corfu necklace. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 01:34:09

I saw that. Almost every woman who has sat in that circle has a necklace from that shop, there’s no doubt.

I'm so grateful for that. I mean, it's been what since 2014, I think we worked out. 2015. That you saw an Instagram post and reached out, and I'm really touched, I think, today, by the real, grounded realness with which you spoke about soul and spirit, because it feels like it also gave me permission to speak more openly about that. I'm thankful for that.

Thank you for sharing your story, thank you for making yourself available, and may you always be blessed and guided in the work that you do.

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 01:34:47

Thank you. You too, Maria, and thank you for letting me talk like that. For really inviting me to talk like that, because if you hadn't done that, I wouldn't have spoken like this, and for me also, it's through you I could experience, okay, it's the time where I actually dare. Maybe I can do it in German too, soon. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 01:35:20

So then you’ve reminded me that we ended our last conversation with you saying, I don't know if I have a story, what if it's boring? And you'd had some feedback from another podcast that because the things you were saying were not anti-system or anti-establishment or were not controversial, somehow meant that your story was boring. Yeah, and I hope you got a sense now that that was not true. 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 01:35:45

I loved everything that we talked about and I felt so seen and I felt so heard and I felt completely comfortable with everything that we talked about. I was just thinking the one person you said that you had a podcast with who said and could we just put it all together. I was just starting to visualize things like, make like a network, an online network that, throughout the world, where awakening doctors - I love your title as well – where Awakening Doctors just exchange and create new ideas and I would love that. Maybe you can do that. It's just an inspiration. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 01:36:33

If that's what unfolds, then that's what I will do. You're making me smile because a few months ago I sent out a survey to all the doctors on my mailing list and there's about… on the closer list there must be about 200 doctors. Maybe a few more. And I sent them an email with a survey suggesting that we do that. That I create some kind of online network and that we meet regularly and just share and talk about what it's like to be in the profession. Three doctors responded to the survey. So I was like, okay, that idea can go to rest for a while. I think, if and when that time is meant to happen, and for now it starts with these conversations and funny, yesterday, and Amy said she liked the post, I shared a post on Instagram where I made a reel of all the different front cover of each podcast. So that's the first network. Conversations that people have a chance to listen to. 

Dr Gianna Brummer Guest 01:37:34

Yeah, and even if it starts only with your podcast, that's just the start of it. I think what is so beautiful about that is that through your podcast you can already get to know them in a way. You can just get in touch with that, with what they talked about, like, okay, you talked about your soul and I feel that way about it, and I think it would be such a firework of discussions and of exchange. Thank you so much, you two. It was so nice meeting you, Amy. So enjoyed our conversation. 

Dr Maria Christodoulou Host 01:38:07

I'm Dr Maria Christodoulou and you've been listening to the Awakening Doctor podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please share it with your friends, follow Awakening Doctor on Instagram, Facebook and Spotify, and go to Apple Podcasts to subscribe, rate and give us a good review. Thank you so much for listening.