Awakening Doctor
The Awakening Doctor podcast explores the personal stories of those who work in the medical and health professions. Each episode aims to highlight the humanity of an individual doctor or healer, and thereby challenge and transform social perceptions of the profession and the individuals who practice it. Join Dr. Maria Christodoulou as she meets with colleagues, leaders, and educators in healthcare to reveal the human side of being a medical professional.
Awakening Doctor
Dr Aisha Moolla, Doing Hard Things
What happens when you walk away from the life everyone expects you to live?
In this episode of Awakening Doctor, Dr. Aisha Moolla shares her personal story of walking away from a career in clinical medicine midway through her internship - not because she couldn’t do it, but because she finally surrendered to the truth that she didn’t want to.
Now a PhD candidate at the University of Sheffield, Dr. Moolla reflects with candid vulnerability on the pressure to pursue a conventional path, the guilt and shame that followed her decision to leave, and the liberation of beginning to forge her own path - one that is bridging disciplines and allowing her to claim a personal and professional identity beyond that of “medical doctor.”
We delve into the invisible toll of burnout, the trap of “just finish the next step and then things will get better” thinking, and the courage it takes to walk away in the face of resistance and recrimination. We also explore the power of humility and curiosity as guiding forces, and the profound transformation that can unfold when you begin to align your life with what truly brings you joy.
If you’re questioning your own career path, or standing on the edge of a life you know you need to leave behind, this conversation offers both practical insights and emotional truths to help you take the next best step.
Join us for a thought-provoking exploration of identity, courage, and the power of defining success on your own terms - beyond tradition, and toward authenticity.
If you enjoy these conversations and would like to support our work, please consider donating to our podcast fund using the link above. Your contribution helps us cover production costs and keep bringing you great content. No amount is too small and your support means the world to us. Thank you!
Credits:
Hosted by Dr Maria Christodoulou
Produced and edited by Amy Kaye
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Thank you for listening!
Oddly enough, I don't see bravery as the forefront of my personality traits, but I do acknowledge that it took a certain level of bravery and blind faith to make the transition. And I would be lying through my teeth if I said that every single part of blindly going forward, putting myself in uncomfortable situations, of taking myself out of my comfort zone, didn't give me severe anxiety. I fit the traditional personality type of that type A, of the perfectionism, of the wanting to be ready, but I make a conscious choice to do otherwise. The process of having your path just so clearly marked out for you made that transition really difficult. I was like, I have this whole life that is easy and I'm just like throwing it away for something that's unknown to me and may end in complete disaster, and that was very apparent to me at the time. If I didn't have the support around me that I did, I can't say that I would have definitely made the same decision, or at least not at that point.
Dr Aisha Moolla:So yes, I feel discomfort. It's not something that comes easy to me, but the first move was the hardest move and everything that came after that became easier and easier. The delinking of my self-worth and my work really helped in shifting that for me dramatically. And that also didn't happen overnight. That happened progressively over time, and then, as I was going through these different career experiences and engaging in different contexts that were otherwise foreign to me, I started to realize the benefit of taking these risks and always being the dumbest person in the room, which is something I aim for in every part of my life, and it was just the benefit that outweighed the discomfort for me. That was enough to push me forward, but it takes conscious thought and effort.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:And some courage. Welcome, I'm Dr Maria Christodoulou, and this is the Awakening Doctor podcast, a space where we discover the personal stories of those who work in the medical and health professions. Join me as I explore the hopes, the fears, the aspirations and the real-life challenges of those who carry the title, responsibility, and privilege of being a doctor. Joining myself and producer Amy Kaye today is Dr Aisha Moolla, an interdisciplinary medical professional whose unique blend of interests and expertise is bridging the gaps between health economics, public health, clinical medicine and machine learning. Aisha has a medical degree from UCT and a master's in public health from the University of the Witwatersrand, and is currently a Wellcome Trust PhD candidate at the University of Sheffield, where she's exploring how real-world data can shape economic models and healthcare reform. Welcome, Aisha, it's great to have you with us today.
Dr Aisha Moolla:Thank you so much, Maria. It's so good to be here and thank you for giving me a platform to speak.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:It's a pleasure. I'm looking forward to us sharing your story, because I think that there are many out there who will be able to relate to some of what you've been through.
Dr Aisha Moolla:Definitely. I'm hoping that this can help people who are going on the same journey that I once did, because it's not an easy one.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Right. W elcome to Amy too. How are you, Amy?
Amy Kaye:Great, happy to be here.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Good. S o, Aisha, you tell me, where should we begin?
Dr Aisha Moolla:I think the starting point of this conversation goes back further than I thought originally, to the point where I was thinking to myself, when did I make this choice? Who was I? And that was actually a very, very long time ago. I think I was probably around 16 when I decided that I wanted to do medicine, which I think explains a lot of what came after that point. My parents, like a lot of other parents, wanted me to do something that had a lot of stability, so they wanted me to be in one of the more traditional career paths, which I think a lot of parents encourage, and it's understandable. My decision-making at the time was quite poor and a little bit flimsy. I remember doing a job shadowing exercise with a few doctors and then, based on that alone and just my familiarity with the field, I kind of picked medicine out of a process of elimination, not exactly informed in any way.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Well, when you say that, like, in your mind back then, because of course now you have a different level of insight, but when you, at 16, did some job shadowing, thought about I'm going to be a doctor one day, like, what was the fantasy? What did you imagine you would be doing?
Dr Aisha Moolla:We all watch Grey's Anatomy or House or something equally...
Dr Maria Christodoulou:That comes up a lot in these conversations as an example.
Dr Aisha Moolla:Which I think is problematic in and of itself. I had family members who were doctors and I misinterpreted what their lives were like because I only saw the personal aspects of that playing out. I didn't have the opportunity to see them in the workplace, and even though I had those opportunities to job shadow and kind of go into the field, if you will, I think it's the chronic nature of the task that is medicine that really sheds light on what it's actually about. Going in every second day for a week doesn't really give you a clear picture of what you're signing up for at all, but at the same time I feel like there's very little that can prepare you for that and making that decision.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Okay, so 16 years old, flimsy decision-making processes, you decide to go to medical school.
Dr Aisha Moolla:I ended up going to UCT - again, because it was closest to my house. A lot of convenient decisions. My reflection of med school is that there were so many ups and downs. I have very clear recollections of expressing to my friends and family that I had really wanted to have that stereotypical university experience - upper campus, Jammie steps, and I was quite jealous of everybody else who got to have that, because I was so isolated on medical campus. And it was pretty gruelling from the beginning. The jump from being a high schooler to being in med school was quite large. That was quite a big transition for me, but at the same time, I think in reflection, I had a lot of good times as well. It makes you grow up really fast and it taught me a lot of discipline.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:So the jump from high school was quite large. What were some of those challenges? What made it such a big jump?
Dr Aisha Moolla:I think, just being what felt like abandoned. We were thrust into this world of university, which is largely self-led a ctually. T here were no teachers offering help, monitoring, giving me homework. I didn't feel as though there was a lot of senior input although I did seek that out later down the line, and just needing to work my way through some really difficult scenarios for the first time, like seeing someone die and just having no one to kind of comfort me in that moment or offer advice on how to move through that, other than to say you push through.
Dr Aisha Moolla:It was quite difficult.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Do you remember the first time you saw someone die?
Dr Aisha Moolla:No, actually maybe I blocked that out. Second year anatomy and getting our cadavers, which was equally interesting.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Say more about interesting. What was it really like?
Dr Aisha Moolla:I think initially, just being confronted with how impersonal the experience was treated, was really shocking. In hindsight, I understand that doctors compartmentalise these things and have no choice but to be okay with it, otherwise they might fall apart on the job, and I think that was being reflected back at me, at the time, by my lecturers essentially. I t was a culture of being told that you have to be okay with this and sort of just like pushing myself to that point of acceptance.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Right, and I'm wondering if it's acceptance, because if I think back to my time, that feeling of you just have to be okay with this is very prevalent, but often you're not okay with it, and so it's not so much about acceptance as it is suppression, I think, of what's happening. Sjoe, okay, so you go to medical school. You find yourself thrust in this new world of adulthood. What was medical school like on the whole, for you?
Dr Aisha Moolla:It's all a bit of a blur. There was lots of work. I felt like I was working really hard in the hospital, out of the hospital. S o much rote learning, so much pattern recognition, very little socialising. But there were also good parts to it, I suppose. T here was a lot of camaraderie around our fellow students, essentially. G oing through the same experience and almost trauma bonding in that moment. These are still people who I'm friends with today. I built some long-lasting relationships through med school. I met my husband, so, ja, one of the longest-lasting ones, which I think was categorically one of the better decisions I made as a young person.
Dr Aisha Moolla:We did have a lot of fun doing our little calls, helping each other out, making sure we had each other's backs.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:When did you start dating?
Dr Aisha Moolla:.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Oh, wow, okay, that's very soon. Sjoe, and then you got married when? In my fifth year. Okay, sjoe, that's a big responsibility. I also got married in fifth year. My ex-husband wasn't in the medical field, but I remember it being quite challenging trying to plan a wedding and be a newly married person in the midst of fifth year medical school.
Dr Aisha Moolla:I think for me, I had the benefit of having him understand, given the fact that he was there with me and we were actually clinical partners, s o we were quite literally going through it together and I loved working with him as well, which made the planning process a little bit easier because we actually saw each other.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Right.
Dr Aisha Moolla:And, yes, wedding planning was difficult during med school, but it offered me almost an outlet for something different, which I actually enjoyed, because up until that point it felt as though my life had shrunk and I was no longer doing anything else but medicine. I was becoming medicine. It felt like that was all I knew. So having this extra task to do was very refreshing for me actually.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:I remember when we spoke last time you said that you felt less intelligent when you finished medical school than you did when you finished school. You said you felt smarter post high school than you did at the end of your medical degree and that you needed to reclaim your brain.
Dr Aisha Moolla:That's 100% true. There's some selection bias when it comes to the medical school cohort, in general, where there's a very specific personality type that ends up there, and I think I'm probably part of that nerdy group of people. Self-proclaimed. A nd so I was very used to engaging my brain quite deeply before I started, and I was almost sold the idea that this would be the case through med school, that I would need to do a lot of thinking, that it was a very difficult degree. I think I misinterpreted that and thought that it meant intellectually difficult, but it was more a physical for me.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Right.
Dr Aisha Moolla:And so again, the rote learning aspect, the pattern recognition and that part of my life consuming all other parts of my life, meant that that was the only information I was learning and it just did not feel stimulating for me at all. I didn't feel as though I was thinking. I felt like I was memorising.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Right, which, in a way, one is. You have to memorise huge volumes of data in order to be able to retrieve it and do the problem solving, so it can be quite challenging. Are there any stories or experiences that stand out for you about your time at medical school, patient encounters or clinical encounters?
Dr Aisha Moolla:There are many, particularly when it came to bonding with patients, if I could call it that. Despite having left and having a hard time throughout my journey, there were also large aspects of it that I did in fact enjoy. I really loved psychiatry. I really loved neonatology and I think, although I didn't gel quite well with obs and gynae, it's probably the part of the experience that I recall most deeply. I was in my obstetrics block and we had to have a set number of deliveries that we needed for our logbook. The dreaded logbook.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Yes, I remember that too.
Dr Aisha Moolla:For the first time I saw what actual childbirth was really like, which was so shocking. And then I sort of ended up gravitating towards younger moms, teen moms, who at the time I felt just had no support at all from both outside people and within the hospital or like from midwives in general, and I just found a soft spot for these girls. They stay with me.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Ja, you're reminding me. I think it was third year in my time when you had to first go and witness deliveries for your logbook so that in fourth year you could actually do some deliveries. And I remember the first night we went, because we went after our lectures and it was the first time we put scrubs on and in those days, if you were a female medical student, you had to use the nurses changing rooms. There was a doctors and nurses, so there was an assumption that doctors were male and nurses were female, and so we had to borrow scrubs from the male changing room, otherwise we would look like nurses.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:I remember all of that and I still remember us taking out our cameras to take photos of us in scrubs the first time and then going in with this naive... You know, I'd never seen a woman give birth before and you have these like idealistic ideas. The miracle of childbirth, and, of course, being a tertiary hospital, we were seeing all the complex pregnancies and it happened to be a young 16-year-old who was giving birth that night and it was just. I mean, my memories of it are still very vivid because it was just gruesome. I left there shell shocked. I did not expect naively the blood and the gore. I guess the primal nature of it. I t's not like it's in the movies.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:No, it's not like it is in the movies. And I remember walking away thinking, oh my God. And I've still got the journal entry where I wrote like, where is the miracle of life I was called to witness? W here i s this miracle of life? Because this was just brutal and I think she ended up having to have a vacuum extraction and she tore and she was very anxious and panicky on the table and it was just... ja. So I understand when you say some of those stories stay with you. And you mentioned earlier very briefly that your parents wanted you to choose a traditional path. Tell me more about your background and your childhood. Where did you grow up and were your parents professionals? What made them so focused on a professional career for you?
Dr Aisha Moolla:So, I grew up in Cape Town, Southern suburbs, the usual story.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:What's the usual story?
Dr Aisha Moolla:The usual lifestyle, a true Capetonian in my heart. I went to Rustenburg, which I actually really enjoyed at the time. I mention that because culturally, there's also quite a strong push from the school to follow a profession and go on to study e ven. M y parents are accountants, so also in a profession.
Dr Aisha Moolla:And like I said, I have so many doctors in my family it almost felt like something you just did. It was never something I questioned or something that stood out as an opportunity to divert away from. I think we were all kind of trapped in the idea of what it could have been like and what we thought it would be like.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:And, with the wisdom of hindsight, if you could go back and be 16 again, what would you choose now?
Dr Aisha Moolla:Initially, when I left clinical medicine, I had very few regrets, other than the fact that I thought that I should have left sooner. I knew in second year already that this is probably not for me. Quite early on. I sought out help from one of my lecturers who had been doing it for many, many years and he told me, don't worry, you'll be okay, you're going to thrive in the clinical years, just stick it out. And I kind of just trusted him blindly. And then I got to my clinical years and every year I would say, I think I want to leave, and my parents would say but you're this far, you might as well stick it out, and that's one of the traps of medicine.
Dr Aisha Moolla:There's always one next step, there's always another thing to go to. You finish your preclinical years. You finish your clinical years. Just finish internship, just finish comm serve, just be an MO, just a reg. And there's always another benchmark that you can achieve essentially, and I felt that I had like wasted time, if you will, doing this long degree, but now, I actually don't regret any part of it at all. I feel like I value the knowledge that I received from doing that and the life experience. It's something that I couldn't get anywhere else in any other profession, and I enjoy that part of myself. I think the only difference is that it's not the only part of myself and it's definitely not the identity that I prioritise.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Right, so let's talk about leaving medicine, because you've alluded to it a few times in the conversation, but we actually haven't spoken about that. You talk about when you left, and having left, tell us what that means. What do you mean you left medicine?
Dr Aisha Moolla:I left clinical practice during my internship.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Did you finish your internship?
Dr Aisha Moolla:I did not.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Okay.
Dr Aisha Moolla:And that in and of itself was challenging, because it was just one next step to complete.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:And there's always the... You might change your mind, and if you haven't finished your internship, you won't be able to practice.
Dr Aisha Moolla:Exactly, I left midway through a block, a ctually. I just reached a tipping point where all of the things became too much and I had no idea what I wanted to do or where I wanted to go next. I just knew I didn't want to be there.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Right. And when you say you reached a tipping point, what was the thing that tipped you over the edge?
Dr Aisha Moolla:I don't think there was one thing, it's just the buildup of everything. Like I mentioned, I felt like I had been intellectually unstimulated. I was feeling quite bored. I was also feeling quite emotionally exhausted because of everything that I was seeing, coupled with the fact that the system was broken, and what I was noticing was that the system being broken meant that there was an expectation that we would all spread ourselves thinner to plug those gaps, at the sacrifice of our life, of our mental health, of whatever comes, and that was really difficult for me. At the time, t he culture of medicine and the working space was also quite challenging. It's a very unique experience in terms of how people interact with their colleagues, which I felt was quite harsh often. Again, looking back, it's very obvious to me that that's a system failure. If people are stretched so thin, there is no capacity for compassion. I think all of those things just culminated into a moment where I decided enough.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:And I'm thinking about what it must have been like to go from second year, knowing this is not for me, and do third, fourth, fifth, sixth, and then be midway through your internship. What kept you going that long?
Dr Aisha Moolla:I think I always knew that I wouldn't do something traditional, so I always knew that I would do something kind of on the side of medicine, adjacent to clinical medicine. I didn't think I would leave altogether practicing. The other alternative that I thought was there are some parts that I really enjoy. Maybe if I just focused hard enough on those things I would get through. And I think the final part that sort of kept me going was the external pressure. The expectation from everyone that that's just what you do. During med school and even after, there was one single time that I can remember where we were spoken to about alternative career paths outside of clinical practice and I remember so vividly hearing this person say that as a doctor you can do a PhD and I laughed so hard at the time. I was like, why would any doctor do a PhD? And now it karmically came back for me. T here was no information, it didn't seem like something you were allowed to do, and so I think I didn't give myself permission to think about it.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:To think leaving?
Dr Aisha Moolla:In my internship, when the idea of leaving came up, I have a vivid recollection of my consultant being really upset with me and explicitly saying to me that if you were my child, I would never allow this. You finish what you start, otherwise what's the point of failing? There was a lot of pushback.
Amy Kaye:What did your husband think of you leaving, considering he was your clinical partner?
Dr Aisha Moolla:I will say that in this whole experience, the fact that he was there gave me the opportunity to leave, and that was a privileged one for sure. I recognize that a lot of people would never be able to do what I did because they have other responsibilities. He was extremely supportive of my decision to leave. He had obviously known how I felt throughout med school already. It was not a shocking revelation to him at all, but we also had the advantage of being a dual income household at the time, so me stepping away didn't have catastrophic effects for our life and for my life, and so his presence was actually pivotal to my decision to leave, and I'm not sure that I would have made that same decision had I not been with him.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Wow.
Dr Aisha Moolla:It was a safety net.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Your family, your parents, h ow did they feel about your decision to leave?
Dr Aisha Moolla:I think similarly, because I had vocalized that I wanted to leave so often throughout med school, nobody was really shocked by this. I got the sense that there might have been a disappointment, but it was something that they got over and now it's not something that anyone really thinks about. You just have to ride the wave.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:So tell us what it was like. You decide you're going to leave, and I'm sure coming to that decision was in and of itself really challenging. And then there's the sort of informing everyone and making the decision real. What was that like?
Dr Aisha Moolla:It was difficult and I don't think there's ever an easy version of this. I made the decision sort of by myself, with my husband, at first. I went to resign and my consultant, again, tried to speak me out of that, but I think I'd made a firm decision. There was just a lot of noise from the outside that I was trying to avoid. I then only told the rest of my family, friends and everybody else, once I'd already made the decision, because it was so difficult to start off with.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Right, so was your consultant the first person you told?
Dr Aisha Moolla:Yes, because I had to resign. So it was a very isolating experience and my mental health had deteriorated because of the job and because of burnout. So receiving that information was really difficult, or receiving that pushback was actually damaging, and so I was aware of the fact that I needed to process things on my own first. I resigned. I had no idea what I wanted to do next. I didn't even know who I was outside of medicine. So how could I possibly know what I wanted to do? And, like I say, the burnout was real. So I decided to take some time off, actually, which, again, very privileged and lucky to be able to do that, and I recognize that not everybody has that chance. I t was fundamental to me recuperating, becoming healthy and sort of starting to explore my identity and what options there were for me now that I had left, because I had no idea, and there's little information out there. T here's no clear point to start looking, either. I took some time off, I gave myself a chance to breathe and then I kind of just took the next step.
Dr Aisha Moolla:Leaving medicine didn't just mean leaving clinical medicine, it meant leaving an entire career path that was already set out for me.
Dr Aisha Moolla:And now I was alone. I had to make those choices by myself, and on the one hand, it was very freeing and liberating because I was no longer pushing this rock up a mountain that I didn't even choose, but it was also really scary and anxiety- provoking. So I kind of picked up this mantra, if you will, of just do the next best step for you. You don't have to have it all figured out, just the next best step. And that was the best decision I made, because it allowed me to make micro decisions and, in the process, learn who I was and what my identity was, and also give myself the room to grow and change along the way, without having a fixed path that I needed to follow. It was just following what I was drawn to and what fulfilled me, and that also meant that I was open to opportunities that I didn't even know existed. There's just so much out there that you don't even think about because you have no idea that it's there or open to you at all.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Right, you're reminding me of something poet David Whyte often says or it's actually a poem, I think, that he wrote, and one of the lines is that you know you're on the right path when the path keeps disappearing in front of you. The implication being that if the path is clearly mapped out for you, it's not your path.
Dr Aisha Moolla:I c an relate to that.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:So you wrote a blog about leaving clinical medicine and some of the challenges that you faced, and in there you spoke about guilt. Tell us more about that.
Dr Aisha Moolla:There's a lot of guilt and a lot of shame. It was very important for me to recognize how much of that was internal and how much of that was external, in order to work through it.
Dr Aisha Moolla:Like I said, there's no support for leaving. You get a lot of backlash and sometimes it feels like that's all true and I think that's where the shame comes from. T hat you're a failure, that you shouldn't have left, that you should have completed what you started. But that was all external to me and as I moved further away from that noise, those words kind of silenced themselves, b ut I did also feel an internal sense of guilt. I had come to med school. People were saying it's so difficult to get in. You've stolen someone's place, you've gone through this training and now you're not using it and you're basically letting people die, because you're not functioning as a doctor anymore, and that was your job, right? L ike, you save lives, and now you don't do that anymore.
Dr Aisha Moolla:It was wrapped up in a lot of shame and guilt.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:How do you deal with that n ow?
Dr Aisha Moolla:I don't feel that way anymore. I think I have come to appreciate what my new role brings to society, and I value the idea that I can help multiple people with the work that I do, instead of one patient at a time. I've also come to recognize that there's value in everyone, and when we align with the parts of us that are what we enjoy essentially, we actually thrive and perform better. I do a better job than I ever did in medicine, and that's a really helpful thought to work through that feeling.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:And you've spoken about the identity shift that needs to happen. So I love when I hear you say I've come to appreciate what my work brings to society, and you talked about there being a time when medicine was who you are, so what have you discovered about who you are on this journey so far?
Dr Aisha Moolla:I think I have recognized quite deeply that curiosity is a fundamental value that I hold, and so that was why I was feeling this stuntedness i n medicine. I love learning new things, I love working in interdisciplinary spaces where I can bring different ideas together, and that wasn't something I was able to do in a siloed environment. From a career perspective, I think there were major shifts in terms of just acknowledging what made me feel fulfilled, and I followed that path. I studied again, I'm doing my PhD, and that's the kind of life that makes me happy. But outside of that, I feel like I suddenly had the room to explore other facets of who I was as a person, and my career is no longer the centre point of my life.
Dr Aisha Moolla:I value all the work that I do and I enjoy that, and I spend a lot of time in my day doing that, obviously, s o it is a big part of my life, but there are other parts of me that are equally or more important. My relationships with the people around me, my hobbies, my interests outside of all of that now play a critical role in who I actually am, and without them I wouldn't be myself.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:What are some of those hobbies and interests?
Dr Aisha Moolla:I recently started trying to play the piano. I love painting badly, but I enjoy that. We actually started going to quiz nights after we had graduated in this attempt to kind of regain more general knowledge, and it became a standing event for us and our friends. There's so much room for socializing. I have a goddaughter who I get to see now and put effort into those relationships that matter. Show up when it's important.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:What do you think it is about m edicine that creates the situation where your whole world revolves around this identity of doctor?
Dr Aisha Moolla:That's a good question. I think there are multiple reasons for that. T he system forces you to stretch yourself really thin.
Dr Aisha Moolla:You are physically at work all the time. There is quite literally no time for any other life. So logistically, I think that's just the defining point. And then I get the sense that there was a culture of if you're not dying or if you're not killing yourself, you're not doing it right, and I think that's an environmental culture that is built within the medical fraternity as a whole. My last assumption is that people are selected out into med school and that personality type places their worth on their academic success, and being in a culture like that perpetuates that problem.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Sure, so what helped you to separate those things?
Dr Aisha Moolla:Well, firstly, I like sleeping in my own bed every night.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:I can relate.
Dr Aisha Moolla:That makes a huge difference.
Dr Aisha Moolla:Sleeping at normal hours of the day and being around people who are no longer doctors was a massive shift for me, being in a workspace that didn't place the same amount of value on isolating yourself for your job. That was quite a transition, but a very helpful one that I keep with me now.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Tell us how it unfolded. You go from okay, I'm going to walk away from internship. You take a couple of months off to regain your health and to think about things. You have no plan, no clue. W hat unfolded? How did you find your way to the next step?
Dr Aisha Moolla:I basically just started Googling. I started reaching out to other people. T he very, very few people, through the grapevine, that I'd found, who had done a similar thing. A sking them for input. I ended up initially taking a job as a medical writing editor, which a friend of mine was doing at the time, and I thought this seems quite interesting. I have very poor language and grammar skill, so I'm not sure how I would perform in this, but I guess I'll just give it a try.
Dr Aisha Moolla:So I kind of just jumped into that, and through that I built my ability to write, which I value so deeply now, and I also learned that I actually really enjoy reading new pieces of research. It felt like I was getting the inside scoop when I was editing papers that were unpublished, and I got to see the new and upcoming developments in the field, and that really excited me, so I ran with that. It was a piece of information, and I decided that I would study. I did a master's in public health, against my biases.
Dr Aisha Moolla:While I was in med school, public health did not have a good rep. It was not something that, as a whole, many of us engaged with quite well or enjoyed. We didn't get to see the real essence of what it was, so I had this bias about what I thought it was at the time, which was actually completely wrong. I thought it was just community-based work, public health programs, or you sat in the Department of Health and ran out vaccine mandates. I had no clue. I had no clue at all. What I recognized at the time, though, was that I really enjoyed quantitative work. This was something I had lost along the way that I kind of remembered that I liked, so I thought to myself, let me try and tap back into that. So when I registered for my public health course, I saw that there was a health economics stream.
Dr Aisha Moolla:And I was like, what is health economics? I had no clue but there was a quantitative aspect to it and I was like, this is the one for me, so just made the next best step.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:I'm just sitting here thinking both your parents are accountants, like numbers and economics, and kind of makes sense in a way.
Dr Aisha Moolla:Exactly. The next step was to do that.
Dr Aisha Moolla:I also transitioned into a new job.
Dr Aisha Moolla:I went into public health consulting, which was the most amazing experience, largely because of the team that I worked with, who were incredibly supportive. L ike nothing I've ever seen before in terms of work culture, and that really reformed me.
Dr Aisha Moolla:And working in consulting also meant that I had access to a very wide array of projects, and because I didn't know what I wanted to do, that was very appealing to me. It allowed me to test out the waters on different things and fast-track getting to know who I was in my career space. So I simultaneously doing that and the MPh I ended up loving the health economics part because it fueled that sense of quantitative research that had the rigour that I was looking for, but also a practical aspect that I could see in the real world, and the balance between those two components was really appealing to me. So I then transitioned into a health economist role in academia and one thing led to another, and I was in the right place at the right time, with the right skill set to get into my PhD program.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:That's amazing, and I must say I'm finding myself like, if I was in my internship year thinking about leaving and I hear you go, I got a job as a health consultant and then I moved into health economics. How did you do that? How does one do that?
Dr Aisha Moolla:I think the main thing that I did, very consciously, was just remain open to the things that were in front of me, because there are opportunities, you just don't see them. A nd then being willing to say yes to things that I may not have otherwise said yes to. For example, I had no idea what I was doing in terms of writing. I just decided to jump in and try it anyway. I had a poor idea of public health and, despite that, I just decided to give it a try and I moved forward. And as you move forward, you build a network, you get to know more people, you get to experience more things and, as your skills progress, more doors open for you, e ssentially, but I think the key thing would be to just remain open to things that you might not expect.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:What's been the most surprising thing that happened for you?
Dr Aisha Moolla:That I'm doing a PhD. In med school I heard someone say that doctors do PhDs and I was like that is so dumb. Why would any doctor do that? It was never part of the plan w hen I left. I did not envision myself ending up doing a PhD.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:And what was it about PhDs? Why did you think it was a crazy idea for a doctor to want to do a PhD?
Dr Aisha Moolla:I had no idea what research was about.
Dr Aisha Moolla:It just seemed so removed from clinical medicine and it is in some ways, so I didn't feel like they aligned at all.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Interesting and your PhD is in quite an interesting field, and I remember, when I asked you for the research question, feeling quite like, okay, you're going to need to explain this for me because I don't even know what that means. So maybe you want to tell us a little bit about what you're doing and what your research is about.
Dr Aisha Moolla:I mean I'll do my best. The topic is unfolding before me as well, and so that research question evolves as I learn more. But the essence of it is using machine learning methods to come up with personalised medicine algorithms.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Okay, tell us more about machine learning.
Dr Aisha Moolla:It's kind of a hybrid between statistics and data science, and I wanted to also bring in this health economics component because I do love it so much. So I am now looking at methodologically how to incorporate these personalised medicine parameters or inputs into an economic model so we can assess whether they are cost- effective or not for implementation, essentially.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:I know you did some work on looking at social grants for pregnant women. Maybe that helps illustrate a little bit the point of what you are doing. Tell us about the research that went into that and the findings that you made.
Dr Aisha Moolla:That was a really interesting piece of research. We engaged quite heavily with the Department of Social Development on that. It had been on their list of to-dos for a while now, with some back and forth, and so that piece of work really just looked at the impact of providing pregnant women with financial support during the pregnancy, instead of starting the child support grant only at birth, and the impact that would have on birth and neonatal outcomes. So the work that we did actually showed that it would be cost effective to do that. We actually save money by giving women some financial support in that time and we were quite happy with that outcome, obviously.
Dr Aisha Moolla:But there was quite a lot of resistance from the public and I think there still is when it comes to things like social grants and financial support. And a large, I suppose, aspect that came forward through this work is the need to respect the agency of pregnant people, of all people, and the value there is in allowing people the opportunity to live in a way that aligns with what they would like for themselves and how that actually brings about better outcomes. I think that's true in a lot of cases. Mine especially. Aligning yourself with what you truly value usually leads to something better.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:So do you feel like you're aligned with what you truly value now?
Dr Aisha Moolla:I think so, but I don't expect myself to be the same person in 10 years time, just like I'm not the same person that I was when I was 16 and making the decision to start medicine. So, yes, for right now, this is the best step that I have taken, and I'll continue to move forward in a way that aligns best with my next step.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:What's the dream? If you could conjure up a dream of the miracle career path, w hat would it include?
Dr Aisha Moolla:Ooh, a dream. I would love to combine the various components and skills that I bring to the table. I am a little bit of a jack-of-all-trades kind of person and I really enjoy that. So working in a space that allows me to do that and still has a positive impact on policy, on the world, in a very real sense. I don't just want to be producing publications and research outputs for the sake of ticking it off a list. I would love to do work that helps other people in a large scale way.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:I do find myself thinking and I've said this to other guests too when they talk about leaving medicine. You've left clinical medicine. I'm not convinced you've left medicine.
Dr Aisha Moolla:Oh, definitely not. Medicine is still so central to the work that I do. But the only difference now is that it's just one facet of what I bring. It's not the whole table.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Right, and do you think you could do this work, or do this PhD, without your background in clinical medicine?
Dr Aisha Moolla:Yes, I know that there are many other people who I work alongside who have a variety of backgrounds, and that's what makes this so enjoyable. I get to engage with people who bring something different when we have these discussions, and that broadens my perspective on how I think about my work, the world and medicine in general, and that's the beauty of the space.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:I guess I'm also curious about the part of you that was quite passionate about wanting to share your story, because there are so many people reaching out to you to find out how you did what you did. I'm wondering what that's saying about the profession, but also what's that like for you to now, after having gone through some of the judgment and the criticism and feeling ashamed of yourself and feeling guilty about the decision you made, to now have colleagues reaching out to you wanting your advice?
Dr Aisha Moolla:That was an interesting journey because when that first started happening to me, I noticed that I had developed a sense of anger or resentment towards the people who had said those things to me, and it was very much this feeling of why would I help you now, like, you spoke badly about me. I have since moved on from that and I now feel a sense of empathy towards anybody who is in that position, because I do know what that feels like and if you're reaching out to me, I know you're sort of at the end of your line and you're desperate. I know that the parts of people that made me feel resentment is not their fault and it's very difficult to feel empathy and compassion when you are depleted. So I do my best to offer the help that I can. Unfortunately, there are just so many people who reach out that I don't always have the opportunity to have one-on-ones with everyone.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:How many calls or messages are you getting? How many people are reaching out to you?
Dr Aisha Moolla:I'm getting a message or two every single day.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Wow, and at what stage of their career are these people who are reaching out to you?
Dr Aisha Moolla:Varying degrees. Some people are in med school. Some people are going into registrar programs or are already there. I will say I don't get any consultants. A very wide array of people and I can feel the desperation. I can feel the anxiety of not knowing how to go forward. W anting to move but not being able to move and the stuckness of that, and I hope that I can put out some more resources that are of more help, because there just isn't anything available out there. I hope that people can build the self-trust that they need to take the leap and trust that the journey will give them what they need and, unfortunately, I don't have the answers for everyone. My life is not the same. I feel like people sometimes reach out hoping for my validation of their decision and I can't give you that. But I can tell you what I know and hope that you take what is relevant for you and leave the rest behind.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Amy, you wanted to ask something.
Amy Kaye:You seem incredibly brave. That's the impression I get, because you just seem like somebody who... I have this image of you standing on the cliff and you just jump, because you talk about the fear, you talk about the stuckness, and this is something I can definitely relate to. W here you know you need to do something different, you know you need to shift, you know that, like Maria said, the path isn't clear in front of you. You left medical school despite everybody telling you don't do this, this is a stupid move, and why would you do this? This is crazy. You did it anyway.
Amy Kaye:Then you had all these different career opportunities in fields that you didn't particularly know what you were doing or didn't feel you were ready, and you did it anyway. People are still clearly coming to you for advice and saying what do I do? How do I get unstuck? How do I make the move? How do I make the jump? So, have you always had this mindset of, even if I'm not ready, I'll figure it out along the way? Or how do you grapple with that? How do you just go, it'll figure itself out somehow? Most people want to be perfect before they even try, so they won't try.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:I'll leave when I know what's next.
Amy Kaye:Exactly. Or the assumption is that you're an A-type personality, you're very intelligent, you love data, you love finding out all the information first. So how do you go from that mindset to, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm going to say yes anyway?
Dr Aisha Moolla:Thank you, that's really kind of you to say. Oddly enough, I don't see bravery as the forefront of my personality traits, but I do acknowledge that it took a certain level of bravery and blind faith to make the transition. And I would be lying through my teeth if I said that every single part of blindly going forward, putting myself in uncomfortable situations, of taking myself out of my comfort zone, didn't give me severe anxiety. I fit the traditional personality type of that type A, of the perfectionism, of the wanting to be ready, but I make a conscious choice to do otherwise.
Dr Aisha Moolla:The process of having your path just so clearly marked out for you made that transition really difficult. I was like, I have this whole life that is easy and I'm just like throwing it away for something that's unknown to me and may end in complete disaster, and that was very apparent to me at the time. If I didn't have the support around me that I did, I can't say that I would have definitely made the same decision, or at least not at that point. So yes, I feel discomfort. It's not something that comes easy to me, but the first move was the hardest move and everything that came after that became easier and easier. The delinking of my self-worth and my work really helped in shifting that for me dramatically, and that also didn't happen overnight. That happened progressively over time and then, as I was going through these different career experiences and engaging in different contexts that were otherwise foreign to me, I started to realize the benefit of taking these risks and always being the dumbest person in the room, which is something I aim for in every part of my life, and it was just the benefit that outweighed the discomfort for me, that was enough to push me forward, but it takes conscious thought and effort.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:A nd some courage.
Amy Kaye:Yes.
Dr Aisha Moolla:I say this to all the people who reach out to me and are scared to leave: Y ou have done hard things. You have made it through clinical medicine. That is not equivalent to, say, another type of degree where you're not working, studying, doing everything at the same time, have no life outside of that. You have done hard things. You continue to do hard things. Why would this be any different?
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Well, because the agency for that has to come from within. It's not validated and affirmed by everyone around you, and I think that's kind of a key process in the individuation if we want to get fancy about it. In like really claiming who you are, is to slowly begin forging a path that is your own, rather than walking the path that others have designed for you, and it takes courage.
Amy Kaye:I think it's also similar to that thing of happiness being elusive. Like you think, if I just do this thing, then I'll be happy, and then you get to that. And now what do I do? And now what I do? And now what I do? If you're always chasing whatever that thing is, chasing happiness, chasing your career, chasing success, chasing something. I t's always beyond you because you never get... And now I've reached nirvana and now I can just stop being human. It's so cyclical, everything. I love that idea of being the stupidest person in the room. I've never heard that before, but that's really amazing, especially for somebody that loves knowledge and loves being a student for life. That's amazing, because then there's always an opportunity to learn rather than having the ego and being like, oh, I'm the smartest person in the room. You're looking at it in a completely different way, so that's really cool.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:It's hard to uphold the energy of being the smartest person in the room. You're always under threat. There's always someone smarter coming up behind you. There's something quite liberating about giving yourself permission to be the novice and the learner. But I also have a sense, Aisha, that there's a new generation of young doctors emerging that are stepping into this... I'm going to call it the spaces between. There's a lot of siloing that happens in the profession. There's a lot of discipline-focused, discipline-specific learning that happens, and I think that's part of why the system is in trouble. And so, having people like yourself who have the ability to bridge the gaps across, as you said, it's public health, it's health economics, it's clinical medicine, it's machine learning. I think these are new and innovative spaces for people to inhabit. And I think you talk about what it takes to make that step and to step into the unknown. And even Amy's question...
Dr Maria Christodoulou:I remember, for me, there was a time when I realized that it was almost scarier not to take that step into the unknown.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:You get to a point where the feeling of the consequences is like, if I don't jump, I'm going to die, or some part of me is going to die. If you went from second year to seventh year, feeling like this was not for you, this was not for you.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:And I think there's a point at which - it's still a choice point and we can call it maybe a tipping point - but there's a point at which you either go, I'm going to resign myself to this and I'm just going to get pulled along. I'm not even going to be kicking and screaming anymore, I'm just going to do this because that's what's expected of me, and I think there's a lot of walking dead people who've got to that place in the profession and in their lives. And then I think there's that thing of something else is calling me, and you can name that in a myriad of different ways, but it doesn't even feel like it's brave, because it's like a compulsion. You don't have a choice but to take that step.
Dr Aisha Moolla:Precisely. It didn't feel like much of a choice, it just was. But that's not to say that if you don't feel that way, that you can't make that step. I don't think you need to wait until you're so broken down, and for me that loss was myself. You don't need to lose yourself before you do that, you just need to want more for your own life. And, Amy, you touched on this cycle of never achieving happiness, one next thing to do to get there, and for me it was just about wanting to be happy now. Yes, I have ambitions, I have dreams, I want to move forward in my career, I want to do good things, but I want to be happy now, otherwise, what's the point? So I definitely agree with that sentiment.
Dr Aisha Moolla:And, Maria, you mentioned this thing of bridging the gaps or the spaces in between, and I love that so much, because this is exactly how I feel, and it's kind of brought me full circle where I had this real anger towards the system failure and feeling so unsupported; o ppressed by a system that was forcing me to do things that I didn't necessarily want to do. And I truly believe that when we start to fill the in-between spaces, when we can talk to one another, when the silos break down, t hat's when the system is built, that's when the system can thrive. And you asked me about my dream. If the system can thrive, then I've done my job.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:So, for the benefit of the listeners who won't be able to see your face in this moment, there was a lot of energy and a lot of... I almost felt like you were getting emotional as you spoke about this dream. What would it mean for you for the system to shift into that?
Dr Aisha Moolla:I suppose it's not what it would mean for me, but more... would mean for everyone. Everything has a ripple effect. It seems like you fix one problem and you just kind of fix that problem, but that's not really true. To fix the system is a big undertaking, one that maybe realistically never exists, because there will always be something, but that trickles down into the patients, into the doctors, the nurses, all health professionals. That means that they can provide better care. If people are getting healthier quicker, w e have this healthy society where people are thriving. It's about the ripple effect.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:And in a way it feels like it's also about going back to the beginning. I was struck when you mentioned that what stays with you from your clinical years is your time in obstetrics and the connection you felt to those young women who are coming in, often from these under-resourced environments and really struggling. I know you've been involved in many other projects and research, but the one you highlighted, or that I touched on anyway, was the one about giving social grants to young pregnant women, and I read the article that you guys wrote about that and this emphasis on the first 1000 days of life and how supporting young pregnant women would make such a difference to children in the first 1000 days of life. And we've had a previous guest on the show who also spoke about how important those first 1000 days of life are and I'm wondering what it would look like for us to be able to nourish the health system, not in the first 1,000 days, but if something different could go into the system in a way that would allow it to flourish and thrive. Because right now and I almost hesitate to say the system is broken, because there are people like you and me in the system and so I'm not convinced that the system is broken, but I think that there are connections that still need to be made.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:I find myself thinking about how often I have conversations with colleagues like yourself who've made brave decisions to walk away, and my own guilt and shame about so-called walking away for a time, and then thinking like, what if we reframe that? What if that's because you have a different kind of contribution to make? What if the mass exodus from medicine, because it is being described as a mass exodus - I can't remember now what the statistics are in the States, but they are horrifying. The number of doctors who are leaving medicine or the number of doctors who are committing suicide, and so what if that is actually part of the tipping point in the system? So you mentioned also earlier that people are reaching out to you in large numbers and that you don't always have the time to engage with them one-on-one. This may be an opportunity for you to speak to those people and you are sharing some of what's unfolded for you. But in this moment, what would you like to say to someone who's out there thinking about walking away from medicine as they currently know it?
Dr Aisha Moolla:I can't speak for everyone because we are so different, but I think, if I think about speaking to myself at that point, I would say just trust that you have done enough to get yourself to where you need to be. You have already proven to yourself that you can do it and you will find something better when you feel alignment. The fear is only temporary, it will inevitably fade. And, like I said, the main thing for me was that you don't need to have it all figured out right now while you make that decision. Just make the next best step.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Tell me about the emotions that seem to be going up and down inside of you as we speak.
Dr Aisha Moolla:I feel a sense of relief for the life that I now have. I also feel a deep compassion and empathy towards the people who are going through this at the moment. Tough, tough place to be. I can resonate with that deeply.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:You wrote in your blog. to anyone contemplating this path, I hope you find the courage to take a leap of faith and bet on yourself. Life is too short to settle for anything less than joy and fulfillment. Is there anything we haven't spoken about that you'd like to share?
Dr Aisha Moolla:I think that the only thing that we haven't touched on is the breakdown of your identity and the process of doing that. Like I mentioned, I'd lost myself completely, wholly, and the transition was very useful for me to regain that and also restructure. It's framed as a negative thing that this bad thing has happened to me, where I've lost my identity, but in reality, there were also upsides to that, in that I was starting fresh and that was so energizing actually. N ot just find myself and my values and what I enjoyed, but also building the self that I wanted to be. For anyone who feels like they are going through the same thing, where they've lost massive parts of their lives, massive parts of who they are, that's not such a bad thing. There is a silver lining.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:In a way, I guess it touches on the idea of a constructed identity versus an authentic self. One of the things that has always interested me is how we construct this doctor identity, because it is a constructed identity. W e have an idea of, and that's why I always ask people when they say it's not what I thought it was going to be, like, what did you think medicine was going to be and what did it turn out to be? What did you think it was going to be like to be a doctor and what did it turn out to be? How would you answer that question? You said the decision was made on flimsy foundations. You had done a couple of job shadowing, a couple of days a week. Now, when you think about that identity, like, what did you actually think being a doctor was going to be and what did it turn out to be for you?
Dr Aisha Moolla:I thought that I was going to be so joyful in my life, given the fact that I would engage with patients every day with a chipperness and happiness to just make them feel better, and that would fulfill me. T he idea that I was helping someone joyfully and that cycle would repeat itself. And while the helping part does make me feel that way and even patient engagement, I enjoyed lots of parts of that, I didn't expect to be so depleted. I didn't expect to become a shell of a person where I wasn't giving the care that I thought I would have been. I was not joyful and ecstatic to be giving that care. I'd lost my feeling or my empathy towards patients and I was kind of just numb, going through the motions. It was not a fun, exciting place to be and I didn't actually feel the reward of helping.
Amy Kaye:It's funny. I think you mentioned a few times about being in the movies and then, when you explained now, you had this vision of yourself being chipper and joyful, just helping your patients. I just had this Disney princess moment. Snow White is standing in the forest and all the animals start jumping on her fingers and stuff and I thought, okay, so we've got this Disney princess version of you. But then I thought, but actually, if you think about the Disney princesses, they're usually very brave and they usually are having to deal with that whole identity crisis. There's a dragon coming or they have to get away from the evil stepmother or something. So the Disney princess thing kind of makes sense with you. You had your own Disney princess movie moment where you thought you were going to be one thing and then you ended up fighting the metaphorical dragon and now have found your path. So it makes sense to me.
Dr Aisha Moolla:That's a lovely metaphor. I will take that one. I did have a prince, but I like to believe that I fought the dragon on my own.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:The heroine's journey.
Dr Aisha Moolla:That's not to say that the path that I've taken now is smooth sailing. I think I've potentially positioned it as though it's this wonderful, seamless, joyful journey, and while there is so much joy and fulfillment that I do get, it's definitely not been seamless. I've come to understand that for many parts of your life, not just your job, you're choosing your suffering. Less about choosing exactly what you want and more about choosing where you're going to suffer and being okay with that, because it is inevitable and every path has challenges.
Dr Aisha Moolla:You have to choose your challenge.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:So what challenge are you choosing at the moment?
Dr Aisha Moolla:Writing a PhD is in and of itself a dragon that I'm hoping to slay. Moving abroad.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Tell us about that. What's that been like?
Dr Aisha Moolla:Again, another life transition, but with each of these, I feel like I get to know myself a little bit more, and I actually love moving. So I've lived in multiple different cities in South Africa throughout my life now, because I just enjoy that process so much.
Dr Aisha Moolla:But the transition was difficult. Shifting culture, shifting... The people, being understood in a way that felt inherent to me in South Africa and no longer does. Leaving behind all my friends and family, missing all the big events, the birthdays, the weddings, everything else. That's quite difficult and there are upsides, obviously. Like social services work, there's a sense of safety that I really value. Being able to walk in the street alone as a woman is something I'd never felt before. It's a mixed bag. I'm lucky enough to not be alone here. I think that transition would be even more difficult, but it's opened up a whole new world of information, both in my personal and my professional life. I engage with people from all backgrounds now in a way that I otherwise wouldn't have, and you get to learn along the way.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:So how did it actually happen practically that you ended up doing your PhD now?
Dr Aisha Moolla:A little bit of luck. I was in the right place at the right time. I was on a project at work with people at my current university, and this was completely unrelated to my PhD at the moment. I had decided to do a PhD while I was in South Africa and I thought I would do that at my university at the time, because I wanted to be in academia and that required a PhD, essentially, to progress forward. So it was a fairly logistical decision at the time.
Dr Aisha Moolla:I had no idea that this PhD existed at all, but Sheffield was one of the big institutions in my master's program for health economics, so I idolised the university quite a lot, and I think part of me also didn't even bother looking here because I didn't potentially subconsciously believe that I deserved to be here, or that I could get in to some prestigious place like this. In the end, the colleague that I was working with brought the PhD to my attention and was like, you would be perfect for this, have you considered? And I hummed and aahed and sort of in between because it's so competitive and there were only two spots and I was like, I'm never getting this. In the end, I took a chance and the rest is history.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Sjoe, that's amazing. So how long have you been in Sheffield now?
Dr Aisha Moolla:Two years.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:And when are you hoping to complete?
Dr Aisha Moolla:Hopefully in 2027, September. So we're more or less halfway. We're reaching the halfway point, getting there.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Has there been any point in the journey where you've gone, this is not for me?
Dr Aisha Moolla:No, but there have been pivots, so it hasn't been any.... This is not for me, I am leaving, d espite my track record. I have gotten to points where I've realised that the next step forward doesn't make sense and I've had to make a U-turn, change direction a little bit. So there have been detours, but nothing that's saying that I should leave. The opportunity to do work that is self-developed and self-run is incredibly enjoyable for me. All the weird and wonderful ideas that I was thinking about and pondering over, I can now just spill out onto my PhD and run with that. I don't know when I'll ever get that opportunity again to be this free in my knowledge gain. I'm just trying to make the most of it.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:And I know that you've said, I think it's on your website, y ou talk about being passionate about helping solve complex challenges to improve healthcare. We both know that the challenges are many and if you could look back on your career in 50 years time, what are some of the things you would like to be able to say you contributed to?
Dr Aisha Moolla:One of the things that I enjoy deeply is bringing people together. Having the ability to speak the language, if you will, of many different fields and be the bridge that communicates between them is something that would be very satisfying to accomplish. I know that there are many problems to solve, but if I can do that with some success, I think that will feel great. I think just having the opportunity to meet new people along the way, to broaden my skill set, to learn everything that I can possibly learn in front of me. I think those attributes are more important to me than concrete topics, but I feel as though, despite those being quite selfish, if you will, internal goals, they seem to align well with creating change, and it's a balancing act between those two. So as long as I can remain true to myself, I believe that the change will come.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:I love that. I think you're right. And if I said to you, or if I asked you, who is Dr Aisha Moolla, what would you say?
Dr Aisha Moolla:She's many different people. She is a multidisciplinary health economist and, hopefully, data scientist in the future. She is a loving wife and friend. She's a mediocre painter and pianist, and she loves learning new things and meeting new people.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:What do you think you would have said if I'd asked you that question when you were still in your internship?
Dr Aisha Moolla:Oof. I probably would have said something along the lines of I am an aspiring psychiatrist and a wife, and that's where it would have stopped.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Right, sjoe. Y ou've come a long way. If you could go back and give some words of advice to that second year student who went, internally, this is not for me. I know I'm not supposed to be here. What would you say to her today?
Dr Aisha Moolla:Don't be afraid of the discomfort, but continue to listen to your gut.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:Good advice for life in general, I think. Amy, i s there anything you want to ask?
Amy Kaye:I don't think I have any questions. I'm excited to know that there is a very smart and savvy, brave Disney princess doing things in the world. The fact that also this all happened within 10 years is quite amazing. I didn't know that this trajectory happened so fast, which is also amazing. It sounds like it took longer. Also, how much has happened in the world in the last few years, and that you managed to pivot and that you managed to do multiple careers and move countries, and, and, and, and, and.
Amy Kaye:It's a lot, it's a lot to process. So I think if you're moving this fast, that definitely means that it's in your destiny, it's supposed to happen. Often with people that need to do big things in the world, stuff just starts happening, especially like if you're aligned on your path because you've got so much to get done. So I'm just happy and excited that you are on the path and you are doing it at lightning speed. And let's see where you are in another five years from now. W ho knows? It's amazing. So congratulations, it's really, really inspiring.
Dr Aisha Moolla:Thank you, thank you so much. I think that if I can do it, then other people can too.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:I want to end by giving your own words back to you, the words from your blog, some of which I read earlier. T his idea that life is too short to settle for anything less than joy and fulfillment. But you also went on to say, you have the power to build a life that aligns with your values. Trust yourself, endless opportunities await. And it really does feel that way. I almost feel like there's this beautiful dance between a part of you that feels quite innocent and it was interesting when Amy spoke about the Disney princess. T here's this innocence that you bring to the world, and it almost feels like it was weighed down by all the ideas of who you were supposed to be and what you are supposed to do, but that even through that, you were being shaped to walk this path and that you're just now coming into this place where all of this knowledge is going to start merging into something new and unique that we don't even know or understand yet, and it really does feel like endless opportunities await.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:I want to honor you for your courage and I also want to appreciate - the word innocence d oesn't feel right, but there's like this quality of, like a purity of something that you are sharing in the world, and I think you have no idea how many lives it's going to touch. And I think it might even be that when I asked you what you would like to look back on or say you have influenced, and you said, if I can bring people together to have the conversations, if I can help bridge those gaps, it almost feels like it's this behind the scenes power that actually will translate into many different reforms and outcomes, and that you'll be able to know that it's the ripple effect that you've had in the world that is doing that.
Dr Aisha Moolla:Thank you, that would be a really good legacy.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:So thank you for being willing to come and share your story with us. Thank you for the brave choices you have made, because I do think that there is a destiny in that and I've said this to other guests, but I really mean it, I always mean it. I really look forward to seeing how your journey is going to unfold and where it will take you.
Dr Aisha Moolla:Thank you for having me. I hope that sharing my story actually helps someone who will listen and that the information to come will be guiding.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:It's been popping into my thoughts as we've been speaking and I've been thinking, ah, I don't need to say it, but it won't go away. There's something around... The best way to help those people that are coming to you and saying how did you do this, is to live your life fully and joyfully and transparently so that people can follow your example, and that it may be less about turning back to help them do it than it is about moving forward, so that they can see that there is a way forward. Because what was missing for me, and what was missing for you and for others in different ways, is some kind of map, and it feels like you're beginning to put down some pieces that could become a map. But that it's as you navigate the terrain that the path will become clearer. The more of us that walk the path, the more the path opens up.
Dr Aisha Moolla:Representation always matters.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:It does. Thank you, Aisha.
Dr Aisha Moolla:Thank you, Maria. Thank you, Amy. Thank you for your kind words. It was lovely to talk to both of you and have a moment to reflect on my own life as well. It's quite a luxury to be able to just sit and have a back and forth for myself
Dr Maria Christodoulou:What's staying with you from this conversation?
Dr Aisha Moolla:The journey as you move forward becomes forgotten because it just becomes my new reality, and so having the opportunity to reflect and talk about my journey so far has really brought that to the forefront for me and given me an appreciation for what I've done.
Dr Maria Christodoulou:I'm really glad it's been able do to that for you, this conversation, Thank you. I'm Dr Maria Christodoulou and you've been listening to the Awakening Doctor podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please share it with your friends, f ollow Awakening Doctor on Instagram, Facebook and Spotify, and go to Apple Podcasts to subscribe, rate and give us a good review. Thank you so much for listening.
