Dr Albert Viljoen, Being Fully Human

What does it take to move beyond inherited roles and identities and become more fully ourselves?

In this episode of Awakening Doctor, host Maria Christodoulou speaks with Dr Albert Viljoen, a medical doctor turned leadership coach and facilitator, about courage, identity, belonging, and the ongoing journey of becoming fully human.

Albert shares his personal story of growing up with a doctor father, going to medical school, and stepping into the intensity and emotional demands of clinical practice in South Africa. He reflects on the burnout that forced him to confront his limits, the realisation that the life he had planned was not the life he wanted, and the courage it took to listen inwardly and begin choosing a life that felt true.

From clinical medicine to leadership coaching, and from South Africa to the UK, Albert’s journey is one of moving beyond inherited expectations. He speaks openly about growing up in a traditional Afrikaans Christian family, coming out as gay, navigating questions of culture, sexuality, and privilege, and learning to embrace the parts of himself he once felt he had to hide.

Together, Maria and Albert explore the many “boxes” we inherit and inhabit: the professional expectations, family stories, cultural identity, and beliefs about health, gender, race, success, and responsibility that shape who we are supposed to be. 

This is a conversation about the difference between being polished and being present; between appearing capable and allowing ourselves to be fully human. It explores why saying “I don’t know,” setting boundaries, asking for support, and making space for creativity can be acts of courage rather than signs of inadequacy. 

A thoughtful and intimate exploration for anyone standing at a threshold, questioning old definitions of success, or longing to live and lead with greater honesty, visibility, and presence.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Dr Maria Christodoulou 0:00

Welcome. I'm Dr. Maria Christodoulou, and this is the Awakening Doctor Podcast, a space where we discover the personal stories of those who work in the medical and health professions. Join me as I explore the hopes, the fears, the aspirations, and the real life challenges of those who carry the title, responsibility, and privilege of being a doctor. Joining me today is Dr. Albert Viljoen. Albert began his career as a medical doctor, and over time his work has evolved to include a deeper question. What does it take for a person to come fully alive in their work, their relationships, and their life? Today he works as a leadership coach and group facilitator. He's also the co-founder of Be Fully Human, where he and Sean, his partner in life and business, work with executives and leadership teams in organizations ranging from global publishers to UK government departments. His own story has crossed many thresholds, from medicine into coaching, from South Africa to the UK, and from inherited expectations to a life built on his own terms. His career has similarly spanned industries, cultures, and continents, and those experiences of moving between worlds shape his work with people today. He has come to believe that the leaders the world needs most are those who can bring their full humanity to their work. Not just the capable, polished parts, but the shadows, doubts, and parts still in formation. His work is an invitation to do exactly that. Welcome, Albert. I'm very excited to have you here with me today.

Dr Albert Vijoen 1:38

Hi Maria, it's lovely to be with you as well.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 1:42

I'm hoping that our conversation will bring forward the full humanity of Dr. Albert Viljoen today, and that we will talk not just about the capable, polished parts, but also the shadows, doubts, and parts still information.

Dr Albert Vijoen 1:56

Yeah, it's funny. When I listen to the bio, I notice how nervous I get because it's an interesting dilemma that we toy with. I think in life, but I guess it's a golden thread for my story is the capable, polished, competent, needing to be that as well, especially when you're in the medical profession. And same in other professions, but I guess it was even more so in the medical profession. And then how do you come to terms with the other aspects? So let's see. I'm sure that will surface. We've set the scene. We'll take it from there.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 2:30

Absolutely. Well, I guess when I was thinking about how to start this conversation, I was mindful of the many different contexts in which you and I have interacted. I met you when you were a young GP and you came to study integrative medicine. And through that encounter, you ended up studying coaching. And if I'm allowed to say this, but I coached you for a couple of sessions in that time. So I've been a witness on the sidelines of some of these transitions and thresholds that you've navigated. And it's really inspiring to see the evolution and the development of your work and what you're bringing to leadership today. When I was thinking about our conversation and reading the bio that you sent me, I found myself asking myself, so what does it take? What does it take

Courage And Support To Change

Dr Maria Christodoulou 3:15

to be fully alive in your life, in your work, in your relationships? I'm curious about what you've learned or what you are learning about that.

Dr Albert Vijoen 3:24

That's a good question. What does it take? The first thing that comes up is courage. It just feels like it takes quite a lot of courage. Personally, I've had to, I guess, go against a lot of expectations and institutional demands, internal, family, whatever else, in service of something that feels deeper, that feels more true to me. And I guess it's the same when I sit with clients. It's those moments, those transitional big decision moments, whether it's changing a job or whether it's having kids or leaving a partner. I guess we all face those points in the road where we have to make that decision. And I think it takes courage. It takes courage. And I guess the other big thing that I probably underestimate and I'm learning to accept more and more in these latter years of my life is support. It's people. It's getting people in your camp, getting people to support you. I mean, we've had various iterations of our relationship and different ways in which I've been inspired by the work you do and you've supported me in a coaching capacity. But I think it's really essential if we want to access that deeper humanity. I guess it looks different for each of us. It has a different shape and flavour. And no one can tell you what that looks like when you started off. I thought people could tell me. Be the doctor, you know, be the Christian, missionary doctor, follow the footsteps of your dad. That's a story that looked like it would pay out. But then in time, I had to figure out my own way. And I think I'm still figuring out my way. That's what it feels like.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 4:57

I can relate to that. I remember when I was younger thinking, oh, by the time you get to like 60, if you're living consciously, you will know who you are. And here I am about to turn 60 later this year and going, who the fuck am I? I'm still discovering aspects of myself and I'm still finding parts that have been hidden and parts that I choose to still hide away. And so it's an ongoing thing, this being fully human.

Dr Albert Vijoen 5:26

Yeah, it's interesting because I guess when I was younger, I was drawn to this idea. I mean, I think what one of my first memories before medicine was being drawn to the figure of Jesus. I grew up in a family that was religious. My grandfather was a missionary, my dad's a doctor. And this idea of this ideal man, this man who brings healing, this man who suffers for the world was very inspiring. And I guess as I grew older, it felt like he really represented humanity, like someone who embodies their humanity in fullness, rather than just someone who floats above reality, really someone who comes in to meet people in their suffering. And that essence, I think, drew me into medicine initially. And then I had to discover maybe medicine wasn't my path. And then I had to make more decisions as I go along. And so that path that you start with a sense of certainty and direction, it seems that if you keep following it, at some point, it might not be the path that you stay on.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 6:28

So the path that we're given is not necessarily the path we're going to take.

Dr Albert Vijoen 6:32

Yeah. And that's a very common intersection I see when I do coaching as well. Is the... I guess it's the moments when we realise that. When we realise, oh, I've taken this path and it's given me something, but it's not the whole journey. It's only this chapter. And then it's the next phase. And every next phase, like you said, in your 60s, it never really ends. It just becomes a different kind of choice that I guess you make from a different place, maybe?

Growing Up With A Doctor Dad

Dr Maria Christodoulou 7:00

I hope. Let's see. What was it like growing up with a father who was a doctor?

Dr Albert Vijoen 7:06

It was inspiring. My dad is really dedicated to his career. He's a very good neurosurgeon. He is loved by his patients, and he loves what he does. When I was younger, he was a GP, so I was part of his journey becoming a specialist. So on the one hand, he's very inspiring, and he is a great physician and a great surgeon. On the other hand, it's tough because his vocation takes him out of the household, right? He's there to serve people, he's there to support us as well. But just in terms of time and energy, any physician, any doctor knows the burden. That the burden of responsibility of caring for the sick outside of your house often takes you away from your family. So we didn't see him that often. And I guess that also made me question: is this what I want to do? Is this really the life that I want? Is it the life of this high demand work? Yeah, so it's interesting. I guess at 18, at 19, right? What do you know about the world? How do you make life choices at that age that you can stick behind for the rest of your life? It's interesting that we feel we have to be able to stick to the choices we make at age 18.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 8:17

Exactly. So, what did you think being a doctor was going to be like before you started medical school?

Dr Albert Vijoen 8:23

I think I had a realistic expectation, at least to a degree, because I lived in a household where I kind of get what's behind the scenes, I guess, of medicine. It wasn't that attractive, but I still remember when I still had to make a decision about am I going into medicine or something else? Other options for me were music or something more creative, but it just didn't seem to be a viable career. And my parents were supportive. They said you can choose, they didn't force me into any position. They said, you can choose whatever you want. They know medicine. So they said, within medicine, you can be an emergency room doctor, you can be a pathologist. There's a whole range of options within that field. And that made sense. So it felt like a sensible choice, but it was never a choice driven by passion or a choice driven by something that felt, made me come alive, apart from the fact that I know I can help people. And that's at the heart of what I want to do. So I don't think I had any illusions about it, but I think it was even worse than I expected. The reality of studying, the burden of responsibility that you're given at such a young age. And in South Africa, especially, you don't get a pre-grad, you don't step into it after you've done other things. You step into it straight after

Burnout In Community Service

Dr Albert Vijoen 9:35

school. So yeah, it was a baptism by a fire. To the point where when I was halfway through my com serve, I still remember I was working in Khayelitsha, Site B Clinic, a rural part just outside of Cape Town, where you have tens and tens of stab wounds a night, you have cardiac arrests. It's a war zone where you work. And then the next day, straight after your shift, you go into a clinic where you deal with diabetic patients, hypertensive patients. So there's really no rest. And it's emotionally just really a burnout. Like, I think I hit burnout. I drove away from the clinic, and on my way onto the freeway, I think I hit a dog, and I stopped the car to see where the dog is, and I think it scurried off. But I was just completely overwhelmed. After a night of dedicating myself to this profession and to suffering and people, that then I hit a dog. I just felt like there's no winning. I can't do this. And I called my parents and I said, I'm done. I'm quitting. I'm not even going to finish my comm service.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 10:37

Oh, wow. I don't actually know this story.

Dr Albert Vijoen 10:39

Yeah. So I said, I'm done. I took leave for I think a week or something. I just took absence of leave for a bit. Went home and credit to my parents' wisdom. They did not try to interfere or convince me. They just gave me space. A week to think through what is it that I want to do? You know, is this the time to pull the plug? I was so desperate, I think, I didn't actually care. So it took me about a week or so to just gather my thoughts. And then what I decided to do was I'll finish my community service, but there's an option not to do overtime, not to work in the emergency unit. So I moved to a smaller clinic in Cape Town, finished my community service. And I feel I'm glad I did it. I'm glad I almost pulled the plug because it's almost that act of saying no, of saying there's a limit, that maybe was one of the first catalysts I needed for myself to recognise my humanity. That I'm not supposed to be able to work 36 hour shifts and then not kill a dog on the way on the highway.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 11:41

Had you thought about giving up before?

Dr Albert Vijoen 11:43

I think it's crossed my mind during studies, but if I think back to the way that I framed it then, my whole thinking was, I think in third or fourth year, was okay, if I just finish, then I can make a decision. I know it's tough. I know there's a lot. So there's that milestone that you set your mind to. And there's that recognition that once I have it, once I have the degree, then I'll be able to make a more informed decision. What I found kind of bizarre actually was that on that freeway, on my way on the freeway, was that even if I lose the last six months, I didn't care. I really felt like I don't care if I don't finish. It's a bit of a scary place to be, where you're just short of the winning line as an athlete, and then you stop. You know you can actually pull yourself over the line, but something in you just says, this shouldn't be okay. This shouldn't be allowed. And I think that voice of this shouldn't be okay became a big ally for me in the rest of my career. For myself to go, okay, when do you draw the line in the sand? Do you draw it when your body gives in, when people around you say no? Or do you at some point decide what you're willing to put up with? Whether it's, you know, an abusive relationship, whether it's medicine, whether it's the wrong career, it doesn't have to be a big thing. But that ability to draw the line feels so important to honour our humanity as well. To say, you don't have to put up with this. It's a really big thing. I've forgotten about that. I haven't thought about it in a while.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 13:15

Yeah, you're making me think about how often I'm talking to clients about this, but also in my own life, those moments where the answer becomes crystal clear. And then when you look back, there've been numerous little flags along the way. There's been numerous pointers that, you know, we're heading in this direction. But it takes that moment of going, and of usually something happening to make you stop and go, hang on, this is not what I want. I have wondered over the years whether it's possible to get to that decision sooner, as in that you don't have to hit rock bottom or knock over the dog, to be so burnt out. Like, is there a way to hear or heed that knowing earlier?

Dr Albert Vijoen 13:58

I'm not convinced. I'm actually reading Elizabeth Gilbert's latest book. I think it's called All the Way to the River. In it, she talks about the school of life. She talks about there's certain lessons that you can only learn through exactly that. That moment of catharsis, that big crisis, that thing that you tried and then it failed or it blew up in your face. It's almost that shock, I think, that sometimes, at least for me, the way that I'm seeing it is those big moments help me recognize what's important for me. Because someone else would work the same shift and they would be thrilled, right? They would walk away from the clinic feeling this is my thing. I love what I do. I've often been in a position where I feel, have I failed something that I should live up to? I should have been able to. Does that resonate?

Dr Maria Christodoulou 14:46

Totally. How can we both be experiencing the same thing so differently? And also, I think maybe part of the professional thing is, is there something wrong with me that I'm not prepared to put up with this or that I don't find this exhilarating? And instead I find it scary and overwhelming. I'm thinking back to a conversation I had with another guest on this podcast, Sarah Stein, who's a final year medical student now. And at some point in the conversation, she said she's slowly coming to realise that it's too much for her. And she said something along the lines of, it's too much for me, me, Sarah. You know, regardless of how anybody else is experiencing it. And I think that thing of saying, well, this is who I am. This is my particular sensitivity and vulnerability, and this is not okay for me. It takes a lot of courage to get to that knowing.

Dr Albert Vijoen 15:34

Yeah, it takes a lot of courage. And it's ironic because I think we sometimes have these idealised versions of being a human, whatever your role is in life. And what's strange is that the way that we idolise or idealise humanity often is you did it in spite of the odds. You kind of went against. In my experience, the people that make the bravest decisions from the outside look like they give up. They often look like they've not done the magnanimous thing, but somehow they were able to honour something else that's more important for them at the time. And it looks different for different people. I think that's the thing I often come back to. We're all in a culture or society that teaches us this is what it means to be a woman, this is what it means to be a man, this is what it means to be whatever it is. And when I see clients at that tipping point, it's often when they're up against those stories. My parents expect this from me, but and it can be in any industry, but I don't think it's me.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 16:33

So let's get back to your story.

A New Path Through Coaching

Dr Maria Christodoulou 16:35

There you are, you're finishing com serve. What came next?

Dr Albert Vijoen 16:39

What came next? Interesting. A couple of years of floating about as a GP, and I say floating about because I felt I was doing the day job in private practice. I worked a few locum shifts, was looking at starting my own practice. I actually started a practice in Newlands together with Corne Smith, the dentist friend of mine, in the same premises. I looked into doing aesthetic medicine, I looked into doing health, like anything within the field that wasn't the work itself. It was something else. I wasn't sure what it was. And that's actually when I ran into you and when we met for the first time, because I was looking at alternative ways of doing medicine that didn't cost me as much as it cost me. And it also felt, and this was the question I couldn't answer, and I didn't know if I had the question, was I know I want to help people. I do think health is the way in, but somehow the setup of the doctor-patient relationship doesn't do that. People walk in and they just want relief. They're overwhelmed, they're in pain, they just want someone to give them something to feel better. And at the same time, I'm thinking, but this is not gonna last. This is not the thing you need. The medicine that you really need takes more, takes something in terms of lifestyle behaviors, it takes different decisions. But the container between the doctor and the patient didn't allow for that. They're in a victim role. And so I found you at the integrative health course, and through that experience, I was introduced to coaching, which was really interesting to me because at the time I didn't know that was what was missing. But it's the shift in the relationship. It's can I be set up with someone else in a way that makes them feel like they have power, they have choice, and that helps them make those decisions. In the doctor-patient relationship, I've heard so many people say the doctor tells me what to do, what not to do, but they also know what to do and what not to do, whether it's smoking or eating or whatever it is. But the barriers to those choices are a little bit more complex, and they require a different type of partnership rather than a victim- saviour. Took me another couple of years before I went into coaching. I actually, after that, went into Hello Doctor, which was a health tech company, and they set up an app to give people access to doctors. That was when apps were still new. So I moved from medicine into startup culture, essentially. Brand new experience, which opened up a whole new world to me. And then a few years after that, I decided, okay, I think coaching is the thing that I want to do full-time. If I talk to it looking back, this is a course I would never have been able to set. When I made that first decision at age 19, I wouldn't even have dreamt what course my life should take when I hit those big points. Even if someone put those choices in front of me, I wouldn't have known that was the choice that I need to make. I was only really ready to make those choices when I arrived at that destination. And I think because I've had enough of those turning points, it's easier these days for me to take a leap and say, I'm not sure this is the thing I need to do anymore, but I'll follow my intuition, I'll follow my gut, I'll go through the process of not knowing anything and stumbling in the dark for a while. And then the next thing will show up.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 19:55

It takes time to learn to trust that. And I think what I find fascinating is how you know you talk about making a choice at 18. I also made a choice to go to medical school at 18. Coaching as a paradigm didn't even exist. So it wouldn't even have been on the radar. And when I started coaching, I was one of the first people in South Africa, anyway, who got involved in health coaching as an ideology. It was like really a new way. It wasn't even considered a possibility because the paradigm of doctor-patient dynamics is so embedded and so entrenched that people didn't see it as different. And I remember sitting in on a coaching module, actually, where the facilitator, who was a very senior, very experienced executive coach, made a joke about his own health, about how he leaves that in the hands of his doctor. And I sat there thinking, it's so interesting because he would never allow a leader to say something similar about a business concept or a business decision. And yet there's something that happens for people when it comes to their own health where they abdicate responsibility and they don't even know that they're doing it. And so there's something about the historical foundations of how we conceive of what the role of the doctor is and what the role of the patient is, and how we've taken away the agency. And we're both patient and doctors suffering under that. I think it's partly why our health system is in the chaos that it's in at the moment. I remember when you came to study integrative medicine, I remember how curious you were and how excited you were that there were new paradigms, that there were other ways of thinking about health. And I remember us having a conversation in a coffee shop about what next for you, and you were still trying to decide music, the aesthetic medicine. I had such a sense that coaching would be a valuable exploration, even just for you personally, that it may open some doors. And when you decided to go and study coaching, I was really excited because one, it meant there would be new and younger colleagues who were now also embracing this paradigm. But it felt like you would bring something new and unique to even coaching as a doctor. Because again, there's this assumption that if you're a doctor and you become a coach, it's going to be health and wellness coaching. And now there's this plethora of health coaches out there who are just actually telling people what to do in different ways. And that's going to sound like a bit of a judgment. But it's still, we know what diet you should be on, what lifestyle choices you should be making. And we're going to help you fit that mental model and do all the right things so that you can reclaim your health. And there is merit to that model, and there are times and places where those models are useful. But I think the direction your work is taking is certainly something that I feel more aligned with. This idea that actually being fully alive is about embracing all parts and all aspects

Chronic Illness And The Cure Trap

Dr Maria Christodoulou 22:55

of oneself.

Dr Albert Vijoen 22:56

Yeah, and being fully alive often means accepting sickness. You know, one of the big challenges that that power differential you're talking about with a doctor and patient is the expectation of health, right? The expectation is cure, it's health, it's longevity. There are some frameworks, but they're not very well embodied, I guess, in the medical field around chronic illness, around suffering. When it comes to the health profession, we don't have a good model for holding suffering and for people who have to suffer with autoimmune conditions, with chronic conditions. And what happens, I think, in the health space is that the doctor feels inept because I'm not curing you, and the patient feels like they're doing something wrong because they're not getting better. And so we're both in this double bind. And it's a difficult one to hold because obviously we want people not to suffer. But this is why the idea of thinking about our humanity and our aliveness in a broader sense for me is more appealing. It's less about result, cure, destination. It's more about how do I hold the difficulties within the rest of my life? How am I relating to my disease rather than being my disease? And that has really helped me and clients that I work with to, in a sense, loosen, I guess, those rigid boundaries and those rigid boxes that we live in. Because those boxes don't actually help us. After a while, they become constricting. The idea of having to get better becomes its own bind around someone.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 24:28

And something you're constantly failing at if you're living with a chronic illness.

Dr Albert Vijoen 24:32

Yeah. I guess, and this is in some ways easier for me to access because I've had to face my own version of that, right? I have to be able to, this strict idea of what a doctor is, and recognising that's just not the box that I fit in. So if I can get out of enough of those boxes, it doesn't become easier. I'm not gonna lie. Right. Every time you come out of a box, you're like, okay, this is the threshold again. But I think it enables me to hold a little bit more breadth in my own humanity and then hold more space for someone else and the barriers they're up against in themselves.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 25:09

So obviously, my next question has to be what are some of the boxes that you have had to climb out of?

Coming Out And Family Strain

Dr Albert Vijoen 25:15

I could see that question coming. Well, I guess one of the first ones, the most obvious ones, is the box of medicine. I also came out to my family as gay when I met Shaun, my partner, and that was when I was 30. I mean, it's been a long journey being gay and being in the closet in an Afrikaans traditional Christian family, wrestling with my own belief systems, still wrestling with, you know, how do I hold belief or faith or spirituality, and it not being accepted by my family. They have a very traditional belief system, and I respect that. But it's an interesting and difficult one to hold in myself, these paradoxes. And then in the world, I think I've been lucky. I have a few friends that are gay and in their 50s. For them, the struggle was a lot harder because they were up against a lot more prejudice. We still have prejudice in the world, but in some ways, there's communities and acceptance in certain cultures that we didn't have back in the 80s. That was a big box to get out of, pun intended, right? Um, doors of getting out of the closet.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 26:20

What was it like to grow up in an Afrikaans quite religious community and background knowing... Or well, when did you know? How, when did you know?

Dr Albert Vijoen 26:29

Well, I guess, yeah, when I hit puberty, I knew, but the framing around it is a struggle. It's like something you have to resolve or fix or heal from. Like it's something that's wrong. So there was a lot of shame that's embedded in that. The community itself, I mean, there's a lot of value. I'm not going to diss the entire community because I think a lot of people listen to religious families or religious systems and they say the whole system is wrong and bad and backwards. There's an incredibly amount of value in my upbringing. Good supportive community, good people, very hospitable, very caring. I mean, my dad's whole profession is driven by his mission, his mission to help people and to alleviate suffering. So I feel those foundations are really pure and really good. And it comes with a cost that there's some boxes that you can't get out of. There's some boxes and definitions for gender and sexuality that bind them to some code. And I respect that as well. It just made it really hard for me when I meet someone who I love and I truly love Shaun. And I've been really lucky, the life that we've been able to create, that that life then has to be outside of that community. It has to be away from them. So I've had to grieve a lot of relationships, I had to grieve a lot of my own, I guess, belief systems and ways that I understood things. The good grief was that I grieved a lot of certainty, which is a tough one. Because any fundamentalist system is thwarted, or whatever the word is, with this idea of certainty, of having answers, of knowing. And every couple of years, there's another thing that I go, oh, actually, I don't know. I thought I knew this, but I'm having to unlearn a lot of certainty as I grow older.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 28:17

I'm trying to imagine what it might be like, and obviously I don't really have a frame of reference personally, but to be a young man or at high school, to know that you are gay, for it to be loaded with guilt and shame, to know that it's not welcome in your family and in your community, what was that really like for you?

Dr Albert Vijoen 28:38

I guess the best way to capture it, maybe with an image or a metaphor, is like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, is that split personality. It feels like I became very good at performing a persona in public. And I had to split off a lot of my instincts, a lot of my desires, a lot of my not just about sex. I think that's the other misconception of it. It's not just about sex, it's about connection, it's about how you relate to the world, it's about how you present yourself. I became maybe more focused on am I presenting masculine enough? Is the gay aspects or the more feminine parts of self hidden enough so that I'm not found out? And that's why when we started this conversation, we talk about being polished versus being human. That feels like a very golden thread theme for me. Is am I presenting as competent, capable, doctor, straight versus this other version? So it gave me a lot of skill to do that. And at the same time, the skill has cost me a lot of authenticity, a lot of connection, a lot of vulnerability that I feel I'm only really learning in the last 10 years. It's not an unusual battle actually for men, funny enough, gay or straight. The battle of can I be in the world and be vulnerable and not be shamed for it? And ironically, when I give up vulnerability, I give up connection, I give up access, I give up support, I give up community.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 30:05

Yeah. It's interesting for me because a moment ago when you were speaking, you said, Am I showing up as masculine enough? And am I holding back the gay and feminine? It was almost as if gay and feminine are aligned, and masculinity is something else that you present to the world.

Dr Albert Vijoen 30:22

What's interesting for you about that?

Dr Maria Christodoulou 30:24

Well, just the idea that gay equals feminine. Like what is our definition of feminine and what would it mean for a gay man to be very masculine presenting? And what does it even mean to be masculine or feminine?

Dr Albert Vijoen 30:37

Yeah, I mean, the whole gender debate, I guess in the last couple of years we've seen a lot of change around the gender debate, for better and for worse. And it's not a topic I feel competent in getting into, but there's definitely associations we have around what a woman should be like, what a man should be like, the qualities we look for in the, if you want to call it the archetypal masculine, archetypal feminine. I guess my own journey around it has been to, again, say yes to those parts and learn to relate to the parts of me that I don't feel comfortable with. And it's not all to do with being gay. It might be to being silly and creative or being clumsy or having a certain sense of humour that people don't get. Like it's those awkward parts of myself that I've had to learn to go, can I actually enjoy being that too? Rather than that part having to be hidden because it's a shameful, ugly child, you know, that you hide in the basement. Absolutely.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 31:36

So was there a time when you look back and you go, okay, I was performing in this part of my life, and then I stopped performing and started fully inhabiting my life.

Dr Albert Vijoen 31:48

I wish. Maybe on my deathbed. Well, I can say this. There's times when I feel myself more visible and available and myself and more, I guess, expansive. There's a visceral quality for me. It's like a soft chest, it's open arms, it's more relaxed, it's less rigid and holding and contracted. The start of this conversation starts slightly contracted, right? There's an apprehension. What am I going to show the world? How visible do I want to be, which will always be at play. And the more I connect in relationships that are trusting and loving and caring, the more I feel, you know what? I am accepted by some and I am learning to accept more of me as I am. And that's enough. That for me is the ground from which I then live. That's really what I try to lean into more at this stage of my life. The presenting doesn't pay off as much, as maybe it paid off in the 20s, right? When you have to be ambitious and show yourself. At this stage of my life, the presenting doesn't pay off as much. Showing up feeling aliveness and good quality connection for me is more important. And so I try to not hold myself up. I try to not try so hard, I guess. That's a way of saying it.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 33:02

So we started this thread of the conversation by asking about which boxes you climbed out of and you spoke about being gay and that you only came out in your 30s. What was that like?

Dr Albert Vijoen 33:13

Oh gosh.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 33:14

And who did you come out to first?

Dr Albert Vijoen 33:17

What was it like? How much of that am I gonna share? I came out to... who did I come out to first? I mean, a lot of people knew, but it was known in pockets. I had a conversation with another guy on a on a different podcast the other day, and we spoke about the same dilemma of how visible are you? Because you might be out, you might have a partner, but your work community doesn't know, or certain people don't know, and you don't necessarily start with, hey, I'm gay.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 33:44

Well, and why would you?

Dr Albert Vijoen 33:46

And why would you? But for us, there is still that question of should I keep this hidden in certain contexts? Because there's risk, there's reputational risk still to this day, there's prejudice, there's homophobia. I'm lucky enough to live in the UK where there's a lot more acceptance, generally speaking. In some communities, it's high risk to be visible. So I don't remember the sequence of coming out, but I do remember it was very tough with my family, which is understandable, right? It goes against all their beliefs, and it's a very difficult thing to contend with for them.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 34:19

Still to this day?

Dr Albert Vijoen 34:21

To this day, yeah, to this day. It's still difficult.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 34:24

What's your relationship with them like?

Dr Albert Vijoen 34:27

It's strained because of this. It's kind and caring as much as we can, because there's a Christian foundation. So there is definitely care, and they want what's good for me, and I want what's good for them. What's really, I think, one of the most difficult double binds is what they believe and feel is good for me, is the opposite of what I feel is good for me. So you're really working from two opposite sides, trying to get the other one across in a way. And that just becomes very strained. I'm grateful they weren't vindictive and mean. A lot of Christian communities become like excommunicate and break contact. My family still wants contact with me. They still want relationship, they want what's good for me. But we just fundamentally disagree on how that works in reality and how we relate to each other. So that's something to contend with. Thank goodness for good therapy, good therapists, and lots of personal work. Because there's a family, right? There's the systems that reject us for whatever choices we make. The more difficult thing is that, oh, there's actually internally some part of me that's still self-rejecting, that I have had to really grow into if I really care and back myself, the more I can care for and back myself, then the easier it'll be to be visible in public because I wouldn't need someone else to help me feel better about myself. At least not as much as I did when I was younger, when I felt completely a victim of my sexuality. It's not even just my sexuality, it was something fundamental to being a human

Whiteness Privilege And Post Apartheid

Dr Albert Vijoen 36:00

being. This is who I am, this is how I connect, this is how I relate.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 36:03

I also find myself quite aware, and I've been reflecting on this after the last podcast where I interviewed Thabiso. You're a white, Afrikaans man. Did that ever feel like a box? What was it like being a white Afrikaans man in post-apartheid South Africa? Were you ever even aware that that was a box?

Dr Albert Vijoen 36:24

Yeah, it's an interesting box, isn't it? Because in society, this is the untouchable box, or was back in the day. It's the box that's most easy to be unaware of themselves because things come easier. We have privilege. Privilege as well, I would add to that. My parents worked really hard to give us what we have, but I was never wont for anything. Got into the schools I needed to, I studied. So it was easy. Let's put it that way. It sounds awful, but it's true that I feel if I compare my life to friends or people that I know who are either of different color or gender or background, I had it easy. And what's interesting though, I guess because of being gay and not being in a community where being gay is okay, being challenged, I think I might have had a bit more awareness of boxes that aren't that privileged. I might have had a felt experience. And I think it enabled me to empathize with someone who's a woman or who's black or who is some otherwise in a minority group or oppressed. It gave me a lot of empathy because I could relate to a part of me feeling quite oppressed.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 37:34

And being marginalized because of things you can't change about yourself.

Dr Albert Vijoen 37:38

Yes. Yeah, exactly. The difference is I could potentially show up in a room and not be gay, where my friends show up in a room and they are black. And so that's part of the prejudice that they're up against in any room.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 37:53

I find even as somebody who does these conversations, as an interviewer, it's so much easier for me to have the conversation about what it's like to grow up black in South Africa and to talk about the marginalising and the experiences of being black and the challenges and the racism, but to consciously inquire about being white and your whiteness and your privilege. There's something about that that feels like I have to be conscious that I have to do that, because that too is part of the story and part of your experience. And I have to be mindful that it's not only when I have a black guest on the show that we're going to talk about race.

Dr Albert Vijoen 38:32

Yeah, but it's funny, right? Because being white, because it in some ways makes us more invisible, because we don't feel the same, not invisible, but the issues we face become less. So it becomes the non-referential referenced race.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 38:45

Well, ironically, it's because whiteness is assumed and everything else is measured against it, you know.

Dr Albert Vijoen 38:52

Yeah. What was interesting, also coming to the UK, and this is when you said being a white Afrikaans male in South Africa in the transition of apartheid. I think for me, I grew up mainly post-apartheid or when it was dismantled. But when you come to the UK, people have this very, very stereotype idea of South Africans being in that system and participating in that system. We became the poster child for the racist country. And so it's been so interesting when conversations around race show up that people look to us as if you know we are the ones who are more racist. And I was thinking, but racism is embedded in all of us in different degrees. And because I was quite young with apartheid being dismantled, it felt foreign. It still feels foreign to me because I don't have felt memories of how apartheid was enacted, apart from the obviously the fallout and the fact that we have different communities living in different spaces. But yeah, it was a strange time. And then also being held responsible for it. Being white, you've inherited this, and feel a little clumsy with how do I handle this, how do I hold this in myself? It's a big topic. It's a tough one as well. Moving to the UK makes me sometimes, you know, part of me goes, have I fled some of the responsibilities of being South African? I think I have fled some responsibilities. We don't always just move towards something. We sometimes move away from things. I also moved further away from the challenges of an old life where I was trapped in my sexuality and expectations. And moving to a different country, moving to a different town often gives you that feeling of okay, I can start over.

Identity Shifts After Moving to the UK

Dr Albert Vijoen 40:30

Until you realise but you moved along with yourself. So you bring a lot of those stories with you.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 40:36

So, what does it mean to be a white Afrikaans gay man in the UK?

Dr Albert Vijoen 40:43

Confusing is the first word that comes up. Confusing, I guess, because there's so many different angles you can take. There's so many different angles with it. Part of what's interesting, right? I write the bio for this podcast, and my mind does gymnastics to what labels do you put in, which parts of yourself do you add to the version of you that you present to people. And part of me wants to be like, this is who I am, take it or leave it. But there is always a part of me that goes, well, I know there'll be an impact in how much I show of myself. And so I guess it gives me a bit of flexibility. I feel I've got different perspectives I can hold, which is really helpful. When I work with British clients, we often joke about the South Africans and being quite straightforward, we're very direct. I know I'm direct, but I don't always know that I'm being direct when it's happening. So there is that difference that you can bring in certain relationships, but there's also something about being able to come alongside someone. Because, as an example, I might be a white man, but I'm also gay. And so being gay, I have a certain life experience that helps me identify with certain groups who feel like they're oppressed or feel like they're ashamed of something. I feel like it's given me a lot of options and flexibility, but it can be tiring to flex around different identities in different times as well.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 42:07

Absolutely. And the way they intersect in different contexts.

Dr Albert Vijoen 42:11

Yeah. When I moved back the last year, we started running coaching workshops for Boston Scientific, one of the biomedical suppliers, and stepping back into the medical community as a doctor was so strange because old scripts came up for me around, oh, now I have to present competence and confidence. And some part of me was thinking, oh, do they really want to know how to coach? It feels like such a soft skill to bring into this clinical world. And flexing around those different competencies in a domain where the expectation is that you should have the answers. And coaching is all about not having the answers, opening up the questions.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 42:54

Exactly.

Dr Albert Vijoen 42:55

That's really an interesting dance. I'm really glad I could step into that. That's where I feel it became slightly full circle. You bring some of those skills that you've acquired elsewhere and

Doctor Expectations And Saying No

Dr Albert Vijoen 43:05

you bring it back home, you bring it back to a community where it really is necessary.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 43:10

Yeah. It's a nice way to also integrate a part of yourself. I guess those scripts that come up are fascinating because I also have them. Like the minute I know that I'm stepping into a space where people are going to know about me being a doctor and it's a professional space. There is even in my mind a certain way I have to dress, a certain way I have to speak, a certain way I have to come across. And a lot of it is around ideas of professionalism, but also how knowledgeable I must be and how together I must seem and what I must know. So one of the things I like to play with is often to really go into the I don't know, you know, and people are asking me medical questions and to like, I really don't know. That's outside my area of expertise. I sat at a lunch table the other day and someone I had literally just met, and as he walked in, he was limping, and somebody said, Oh, what happened to your knee? And he'd injured his knee. And he heard from someone else that I was a doctor. I didn't hear that part of the conversation. And he ended up sitting next to me. And the first thing he said was, I hear you're a doctor. Will you look at my knee? I'm like sitting at lunch on Mother's Day with a whole crowd of people. And I actually just looked and I said, No, I'm not going to look at your knee. I know nothing about knees.

Dr Albert Vijoen 44:25

Right.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 44:27

And I mean, I know something about knees, but firstly, it was completely inappropriate. Secondly, like I felt so on the spot. Like, what do you... I must now, through your trousers, sitting at a lunch table, I must know what's wrong with your knee and what you need to do next. You know, and then I just said, I think you should see your doctor. The fact that I am a doctor does not mean I have all the answers to every question, you know?

Dr Albert Vijoen 44:54

That's very common, isn't it?

Dr Maria Christodoulou 44:56

Absolutely.

Dr Albert Vijoen 44:57

That projection of what the doctor, you know, Dr. Quinn medicine woman needs to be able to do and hold. It's this insane role that people put on a doctor. It's not even realistic. That's the thing that really got to me was it was so hard to be up against these unrealistic expectations that don't help you or them to get to a better place.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 45:19

But I find that the challenge is, as we said earlier, we've internalised those expectations. So even though orthopaedics is not my field of interest or my field of expertise, I feel like I should know what he must do with his knee. I mean, again, I have some ideas, but it's the thing of like medicine is such a vast field with so many different specialties. You cannot ever be on top of everything and have all the answers. But my feeling is that if I admit to not knowing something, it diminishes my professionalism and it somehow reduces my abilities as a doctor, as opposed to actually a good doctor knows their limits and will say, this is outside my field of expertise. You need to consult with someone else. But it's like there's no permission to do that.

Dr Albert Vijoen 46:08

That lack of permission extends beyond medicine. I mean, it's very big in the medical field, but I've seen that so often when I work with clients, is the ability and the permission to give ourselves to go again back to that question of limits. This is the limit. I can't go beyond this. Maybe other people with the same role, maybe other GPs know this. I don't. I haven't done this in 10 years. That's been the liberation for me is not being in the clinical field for so long. Maybe for me, has helped me unburden from the feeling of having to know. More, not necessarily fully, but going, okay, I don't have to know because I'm not expected to. But it is an internal thing rather than external. It's me going, I'm okay with saying I don't know. Chat GPT probably knows

Creativity Without The Performance Trap

Dr Albert Vijoen 46:55

better than me and most doctors at this stage.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 46:58

Absolutely. Let's get back to the conversation about boxes. Are there any boxes that you've climbed out of that we haven't talked about?

Dr Albert Vijoen 47:07

No, I feel like there's boxes I'd like to climb into, boxes of creativity. Maybe this will be my next decade is to become an artist, to wear the label of an artist. Because I played piano and I made music when I was a kid, and I played in the church, and I enjoyed playing music, but I dropped off when I got older, and something about the creative being on this side of the spectrum and the clinical being on that side of the spectrum. It's almost, again, it's one of those boxes that somehow don't really intersect. It's what I discovered when I left medicine is maybe medicine isn't for everyone. Maybe in the beginning of the 19th century, when medicine was massively experimental, we could just cut people open and see what happens. We just don't have those creative licenses anymore. So it's definitely a box I feel I might want to get into more and will probably emerge more naturally as I grow older. It's a shame that creativity is for creatives and artists. There's a stigma around that as well. They're the lesser part of the community. We've got the people of finance, the serious professions at the top, and then the artists at the bottom.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 48:13

Am I remembering correctly that you had written some songs? You produced a CD.

Dr Albert Vijoen 48:17

I produced three songs. Was it three? Two songs, vocal songs, and some instrumentals, just playing piano ages ago. And I pay an annual fee just to keep them on Spotify for my own pleasure.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 48:31

That's amazing.

Dr Albert Vijoen 48:32

It's funny that I never pursued that fully. Again, because maybe I had some idea that I had to turn this into something successful for it to be meaningful. There's this pressure we put on ourselves.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 48:44

And successful meaning it must generate money.

Dr Albert Vijoen 48:47

Yeah, I guess. Successful meaning money, meaning enough people want to hear this, meaning like something that you can commit to. And now, maybe as I'm getting older, I'm less attached to it having to mean anything to anyone. If one friend of mine listens to it once in a while, that's enough. That's good. That's what music, I guess, used to be before we made everyone some superstar, is it was simply a way to express and have community. It's not the way that I felt about music. I was trained classically and so performing and delivering and being rated by people. That's the way that artists are seen these days. But I feel like if I can get into that vibe that the folksy people are when they play music, that feels like a kind of box I might want to get into when I get a bit older.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 49:34

Why when you get a bit older? Why not now?

Dr Albert Vijoen 49:37

Because I feel like I'm still a bit stuck in the rigid have to perform, it has to be good. There's still a bit of that narrative. When I sit in front of the piano, I struggle to get to just play for enjoyment. There's times when I access it, but there's times when I just can't. And instead of beating myself up for it, like you have to be able to play for enjoyment. Right? It's so bizarre, right? I just go, you know what? I'll probably get more and more comfortable with it as I get older and less hung up on performance, the performed self versus the expressive self.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 50:10

You're making me smile because I recently did some vocal coaching. So one of the things I've been aware of as we speak is my croaky voice because I told you earlier I've had flu this week. I chose purposely not to cancel our interview because it was about being fully human and showing up in this way. But I did some vocal coaching because I've always loved to sing. And in fact, when I was a little girl, I used to say that I'm going to be a singer one day. Like that was what I wanted to do. And I sang in the choir at school and a little bit at university, but then it sort of faded away. And now mostly I'll sing in the car or in the shower or, you know, whatever, in the kitchen. But I realised that I had this idea that if I was going to take singing seriously, I not only needed to have a vocal coach, but that I needed to rehearse every day and I needed to practice and I needed to do my vocal exercises. And almost immediately this thing that was supposed to bring some joy and that I wanted to engage again in my life became this thing I needed to do perfectly. And so when the number of vocal sessions that I'd committed to came to an end, I said to him, you know, I'm going to take a break and I'm just going to keep singing in the shower because that's what I love to do. And I don't need it to be a performance. And I can just sit at the piano and play the five pieces that I still know because I love playing it and not feel like I have to learn another 10 pieces and I have to perform in some capacity. But that conditioning is very deep.

Dr Albert Vijoen 51:33

It's so interesting. It makes me think of a similar thread of being fully human, right? Because being human is not just about showing the unpolished parts. It's about actually just enjoying life. Maybe because we grew up in a system, especially in medicine or any of the, let's call it quote unquote serious professions. I think we become so serious about life that it's hard for us to go, I'm just going to enjoy this and express for its own sake and it not having to be a certain thing on the other side. I still remember that I think to last year at some point, because I brought a keyboard and then every now and again I get back onto it. And I still remember there was a moment I started playing and I was like, oh, this feels good. So that's what I meant, I think, when I said as I grow older, I'll probably get into it. I'll just have those moments when I can just access it for its pure enjoyment, and that's enough. And the story in my head about what it should be is quiet, at least for a while. And I can just be in the flow of that expression.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 52:35

So, in talking about some of the boxes, we also talked about big turning points and thresholds in your life. Are there any other things that have happened that you consider

Meeting Sean Marriage And Visibility

Dr Maria Christodoulou 52:45

to be major turning points or milestones in your journey?

Dr Albert Vijoen 52:49

Meeting Shaun, definitely, my partner.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 52:52

Tell us about that. How did you meet? Where did you meet?

Dr Albert Vijoen 52:56

Do I really want to go into the details? Let's put it this way. I met Shaun when he came to Cape Town. He was on a sabbatical. He's South African, based in the UK, came back home for a sabbatical after he's worked here a couple of years. And it would have just been a hook-up. And I don't know, how long has it been? Ten years since we met? We've just stayed together. And I guess the turning point there for me was meeting someone who I can spend my life with, who I can somehow, I guess, somehow feel that being gay is not bad. Being gay is not something wrong with you. You can find a place in a relationship with someone else, in love, and we can create the life together and we can be better people with and for each other in the world. As I'm talking about it, I can feel how self-conscious I am about this because it's still such a tender part, having to be able to go, this is my life. And part of me going, I have to defend this life, I have to convince someone that it is good. It's still built in there. It's so interesting, right? If I think of friends of mine who are straight and they meet each other and they tell their stories, they just tell it, right? Because it's accepted. I tell it and I go, how do I sell this as okay? Not all of me, but part of me goes, I have to convince someone else that this is a good thing. Even though I believe it's good, I'm up against all of these other prejudices. But yes, I am incredibly grateful I met him because not everyone gets to meet, gay or straight, whatever your background, meet someone that you can spend this amount of time with and really build and expand each other's lives. And also two, three years ago, we started working together, which was a big step for me to go, will our marriage last if I make Shaun my business partner? And it's held up.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 54:50

What was it like to get married? Because that's also a big decision to make for anybody. But I think, particularly in the context you describe, making that decision to make that commitment a visible public one. What was that like?

Dr Albert Vijoen 55:03

The decision felt similar to deciding to do medicine, deciding to leave medicine, all these big choices felt instinctively right and up against a lot of barriers as well and judgments. So the legal ceremony felt strange, to say the least. It just felt strange to sign a contract, but our actual wedding ceremony was phenomenal. We invited the most random bits and pieces of people that we knew and that wanted to come. Shaun's family came, some of my friends came, my sister and her husband came, and we had this really small wedding. Everyone there who didn't know each other somehow almost became best friends. It just felt like such a magical community and a moment in time when the love that we had was amplified by the people around us rather than feeling like we now have to be up against something again and again. So those moments and the people that are, again, I guess back to the question earlier, the people that are with you in your corner, that believe in you, that don't have judgments, that's really the allies. It's easy for me to talk about getting out of career boxes or getting out of even being gay box, because it's me. But the minute I bring Shaun into it, who I love like so much, he's just the best person. And I'm really glad I met him. Because I could have met someone that after a few years it didn't work out, but I didn't. It's soulmate vibes, it's somewhat annoying sometimes, I feel. Not annoying, but you know, when you're in that position, you're almost slightly embarrassed by how lucky you are. There's that feeling. And at the same time, talking about it just feels so exposing. It feels more dangerous. Dangerous sounds like an intense word, but it does. It feels more vulnerable than sharing any of the other things. Because a big part of the world disagrees to the point where they'll kill you. I'm lucky in where we are, but globally the sentiment is violently against us. And we don't always feel it, but I guess it's in the back of my mind always. So when I think of sharing it, part of me perks up. An alert system goes online and says, this is not safe to share. This is not okay.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 57:21

I hear you. And I think it would be naive to assume that it's going to be welcome in every sector and in every place. So, in a sense, that heightened vigilance when you talk about it is probably appropriate. And it's what will keep you safe. I guess it's when it becomes limiting that is interesting to explore. What do you think it is that makes you feel able to share it in this forum? Because it's you and me, and I know you trust me, but this is going to go out into the public domain. What makes you feel ready to talk about it today?

Dr Albert Vijoen 57:53

Obviously, we have the kind of relationship where I can be open and honest and I feel safe. But what makes me feel ready to be more visible public? I guess it's where I am in my life at the moment. It feels a bit like I'm on the next threshold as well of courage. We started in the beginning of talking about being human being means being courageous. Maybe part of me that's also working a lot more with leaders rather than just coaching in general, but focusing on leaders and leading organizations and leading people. There's some sense of responsibility for me to go, well, are you leading the conversation in certain ways? Am I stepping forward in ways that feel challenging but important? I recently did the leadership circle training, and it was developed by Bob Anderson, and he has this line for leaders where he says, There is no safe way to be great, and no great way to be safe. And it really inspired me. There's no great way to be safe, and there's no safe way to be great.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 58:56

I love that.

Dr Albert Vijoen 58:57

It's a good line. And I feel maybe part of this conversation is that. It might not even seem like a big conversation for a lot of people. But I know for me, internally, it is. And I know for some people, it's huge. For some people, being more visible, being more public about not just their gender, but other things is really difficult. And they're up against a lot of oppression, persecution, even.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 59:21

Do you worry about what your family will think?

Dr Albert Vijoen 59:24

I don't worry about what they will think. I have some good sense of what they think and what their concerns are. I guess my only worry might be them feeling put on the spot, and I feel I've really tried to honour them and not making them bad, and I don't think they're bad people. But it would be sad if they interpret this as me villainising them in any way. That's the only thing, I guess. The voice that worries what people will think is a lot smaller this time than it was a year or two years ago.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 59:57

Yeah. I listened to the podcast conversation

Responsibility Limits And The System

Dr Maria Christodoulou 1:00:00

that you did with Isaac Kong, and in there you talked about how there was a part of you that celebrated the fact that your parents had given you this capacity actually to make really difficult choices, which in a way they too are making in the decisions they've made. But at the same time, that it takes a certain toll to feel responsible for the impact that your life choices have had on your parents. How do you reconcile this thing of being fully human with the toll that it takes or the impact it has on people around you who see the world differently?

Dr Albert Vijoen 1:00:36

How, indeed. It's a big one. It's a very central theme in my therapy sessions recently. I don't really have an answer to the how. What I'm doing these days, it feels slightly different to what I did when I was younger, like a year younger, is, I'm trying to get closer to how am I feeling now? What am I thinking now? Who am I in the world right now? Like my position, my point of view, my limitations. Almost make myself slightly smaller, less of a producer looking at you know life from above. More, this is my experience, this is who I am, this is what I choose. And what it helps me do is it helps me recognise that you know you can be fully human, you can be a good person, but there will always be people on the receiving end. And you can't unfortunately control that. It's really hard. I guess you're a parent, I'm not a parent, but when I work with parents, it's one of the big challenges, isn't it? It's recognising this person is becoming their own person. And I can't do anything about that. They will have their experiences. So I don't know how to do that. I try to be considerate, but I think I also try to give them their agency, that they also have choices in this. That they can move away and towards. People can choose a belief system, to stay or leave a belief system. And I'm also just a participant on this planet with them. I think where it gets warped is when I start assuming responsibility beyond my capacity. And that's what we inherited in medicine, right? It's this insane responsibility that's just unreasonable. Side story, I was in that day clinic where I thought I'd be free from emergency situations after my decision. This is in the morning, expecting maybe 10 or 20 patients, not that many. Most of them have diabetes, chronic conditions, some of them have colds and flu. Really low-key clinic, very comfortable. Get to spend a bit more time with patients, which felt a lot better to me. And this old man walks in and he's slightly wheezy and he starts talking about what's going on, but I'm noticing this is not just a normal wheeze. And I realised he was, I think he took enalapril, and I can't even remember the indication, but he started getting a constriction in his throat. And so I had to, in a clinic where there isn't proper emergency care, find a kit to intubate him, get an ambulance, nurses running around frantically because no one knows what's going on. I feel completely overwhelmed. Took me about 20 minutes to intubate him because most of the tubes weren't checked regularly. So a couple of them were leaking. So I had to put in a tube that's way too big for him. Long story short, he managed to get to an ambulance, get to the hospital, and then the next patient had to come in and I had to listen to someone else with diabetes. I mean, it's still to this day, it's one of the most jarring events. But for me, that moment was just an indicator that this is not just down to me. The entire system is supposed to help me do this thing. And if the system fails, I might be able to extend myself and help and do something to help this patient, but it's not all on me. And I think that's the line. It's not all on me. The impact I have on people isn't all on me. I have a responsibility and I'm human. I have limitations.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 1:03:59

I think that's part of dismantling the whole God complex.

Dr Albert Vijoen 1:04:03

Yes, let's call it exactly that.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 1:04:05

Yeah. It's really dismantling this idea that you are superhuman in some capacity or another, and that you, one, should have all the answers, should always know what to do, should be able to save every life, should be able to mitigate the impact on everything and everyone around you. It's not possible.

Dr Albert Vijoen 1:04:31

What's interesting for me, when I've worked with GPs or physicians in any speciality, that almost felt more like they were the superhero, they actually didn't have that complex. They seemed to be a lot more in touch with their humanity, the fact that they're just a person helping another person. Somehow that enabled them to have a bigger, at least from my experience, than moi who got caught up in the hyper-responsibility, which is not supposed to be the way.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 1:04:51

I think there's something also about those of us who have a capacity to think systemically or to see things systemically. One of the things I found most challenging as a young practitioner was that I knew I could intervene successfully in this one domain, but that in so doing, we were perhaps neglecting a whole lot of other aspects of this human being. And so I do think that sometimes, and this isn't about, but for some people, it's easier to be working at that one level and to be content with making a difference at that one level. For me, it became quite overwhelming to consider all the levels I was ignoring. And so I think what I've loved about coaching is that there's this freedom to explore all these different parts and then to also point people towards resources for individual aspects of those parts and take care of individual things, but to be holding the whole person in the space.

Dr Albert Vijoen 1:05:46

Yeah, that resonates. I feel like I learned a lot more about the system when I left medicine and worked in a tech startup because the business mindset has a lot more flexibility in terms of shifting perspectives and bringing in new points of view, where the medical mindset is more committed to protocol and tradition and the clinical context. And so it makes it less possible to move into the system and change things, because there's certain things that we still have to follow. We still have to do.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 1:06:20

Is there anything I haven't asked you that you would like to talk about?

Dr Albert Vijoen 1:06:20

No, because I can't think of a topic that we haven't covered to some degree in this conversation. And topics that I normally wouldn't go to in most conversations. It's interesting how we tend to be quite in a lane when we talk to people. And this has been an opportunity to explore all the lanes and jump between the boxes. So it does feel like I've covered more ground than I normally would in a conversation. So I don't feel like there's anything else that I should say or could say that feels like, oh, this is important. Is there anything

Tools For Transitions And Big Choices

Dr Albert Vijoen 1:06:55

you're curious about?

Dr Maria Christodoulou 1:06:56

Well, I guess I have a couple of questions that may help us round off the conversation. And the one is having navigated so many thresholds and so many difficult transitions, what have you found to be helpful? What are some of the things that have helped you get through difficult transitions?

Dr Albert Vijoen 1:07:13

Yes. There's a couple of things. Getting people in your corner is the non-negotiable. I would say anyone who makes these decisions, who has to cross a threshold or faces a challenge, get someone in your corner. This is not even an advert for coaching. It's just get someone in your corner who's able and willing to help you think clearly. Some people have friends like that, some people have family members like that. But that feels very important because in the end, all of us have to figure out our own path. And our paths need to be different because we have different gifts and different backgrounds. We have so much to offer. It breaks my heart to see someone stuck in a career or a role or a relationship where they think they have to be there for some thing that they're subscribing to when I can see and taste when I'm with them that there's something in them that they can bring into the world that they're just not. They're just not giving themselves the permission. So finding that person that can help you take that permission, take that risk. And the other thing is to tune into different types of intelligence. One of the things that helped me the most in making these big choices is an instinctive knowing. You can call it intuition, but my toughest choices had zero rationale. It was just, I know from my deepest self, just clear, easy knowing. I can figure out how to defend it if I have to later on. And then I wouldn't even bother defending it. But tuning into those instinctive knowings, I think, has been a gift to me. It's opened up amazing doors. It helped me meet amazing people. It's made my life rich and challenging. I'm not gonna lie. I've made a bunch of tough choices that at times I go, should I have done that? But it makes life richer. And I believe I can offer the world something richer because of it rather than something constricted and compliant. What about you? I feel like you have something in a similar domain to offer in terms of making these kinds of choices.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 1:09:17

Yeah, I think what I've found helpful is understanding that every threshold and every transition has stages, has specific stages, actually. I found it very helpful to read up on the theory of transition times and to begin understanding through myths and archetypes and other people's stories that actually there is a bit of a map. Because often when you're going through something like that, it feels like there's no map and there's no way to know what the next step is. And so understanding that there's different stages and that, you know, there's that initial thing of like that inner knowing that something needs to change, and that we then move through from the having to let go and the grief that that brings, to this time of being in a complete void of uncertainty, to slowly moving into beginning to integrate and I call it re-member parts of yourself in new ways, to then sharing that something new with the world. And certainly in the work that I do with clients, having them understand that where they're at is just a stage in the journey of navigating this threshold of transition, can be very, very helpful. It's like, okay, it makes sense. This is something I need to go through. And there will be something beyond this. There is something on the other side of this, has been very helpful. But it's still difficult. Knowing that can be a helpful map. But when you're in that, especially those early stages of you're hearing this inner call to something new, or sometimes, you know, life gets pulled out from under you and you have no choice, actually. And then that phase of the loss and the grief and the complete sort of annihilation of the self that happens. Who am I? What do I want? And often there's no certainty, there's no knowing. That can be very, very difficult. And so I echo your sentiment about having support to make these choices and someone who just reminds you that there is a way out and that you are more than this particular loss or this particular threshold, can be very helpful. I'm gonna ask you about the future in a moment, but if you could go back, is there anything you would do differently?

Dr Albert Vijoen 1:11:26

Oh, I play this time travel game a lot. I usually say no with this one because I can't imagine the ripple effect of a different choice. I can mentally play games with, oh, maybe if I did this, that would happen, maybe if I would do this. But I feel quite fortunate that I don't have big regrets about life. I know I have a lot of choices that I made that have consequences, but I don't feel regret, and I'm grateful for that. So there's nothing massive that I would do differently. The only reason I would do something different is just to experiment with what would happen if I try that. But if I had the option to come back to this timeline, then I might experimentally try something different. But no, and I think maybe there's a capacity in me to go, the choices have been made. What do I do now? That's very much a mindset that's built into me rather than the what-ifs and the should-haves. It just doesn't serve me.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 1:12:20

What advice would you have for a young colleague or an 18-year-old who's thinking they have to choose their career for the rest of their life, but also maybe more importantly, a young colleague who's finishing med school and kind of realising this may not be it for me. What would you say to them? Because there's a lot of them at the moment.

Dr Albert Vijoen 1:12:40

I would say to both of them, it doesn't have to be it for you with a naughty excitement. I know it doesn't feel exciting to be there, but as someone who's been through a lot of stepping into the darkness and having no idea what's next, I can promise you the world is a much bigger place than you can ever imagine. And life has a lot more surprises to offer. I felt a lot of weight on having to make the right choice, but most of my best relationships and friendships were from what I would call bad choices at the time. And somehow they turned into something really glorious. So I would just encourage them to take the pressure off.

Future Hopes And Closing Thanks

Dr Albert Vijoen 1:13:20

It's not all on you. And the journey is a lot more exciting and adventurous than you might feel.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 1:13:24

We've talked about wanting creativity and the artistic expression to be a part of perhaps the next 10 years. When you look ahead, maybe 20 or 30 years' time, what do you want to be able to say about your life then?

Dr Albert Vijoen 1:13:39

I want to have art pieces that I sell. I feel like I want to have art. I would want to not talk so much about being fully human, but just go, look at my life. Look at all this. So something in me maybe even now, even this conversation feels edgy. I'm hoping in 20 years this kind of conversation is just another chat, and that a lot of my championing for the full expression of being a human being will be visible through art, through experiences, through things that I do. Just to show people it's possible that they can really be more than they imagine. And to feel it, experience it myself. It's not just about them, it's about me living into my full humanity. That's what I'm hoping.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 1:14:25

Anything you want to say in closing?

Dr Albert Vijoen 1:14:27

Thank you. This has been a journey. I'm hoping in 20 years we'll both ustill be around. And both of our humanities will be fully visible, fully expressed. Thank you so much. It was really a joy to reconnect with you, Maria.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 1:14:45

Likewise, it feels in some ways like a full circle moment because you were at a threshold when we met, and I didn't know it at the time, but so was I, in terms of beginning to teach integrative medicine and the journey that that then took me on at the Faculty of Medicine. We talk about being fully human, and one of the things I'm thinking about right now in this moment is how this very conversation is you and me being human. You know, I had a coughing fit halfway through, my voice is croaky, you've been a bit vulnerable, you've been a bit anxious about being vulnerable. I've been sitting here looking at my list of questions, wanting to get it right, wanting to make sure that I ask all the important things, worried I'm gonna forget something. I don't think we need to wait 20 years to know that we are fully human. I think this is it now.

Dr Albert Vijoen 1:15:33

This is it, yeah.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 1:15:35

Exactly. And we don't have to explain it or make excuses for it.

Dr Albert Vijoen 1:15:39

Yeah. Just be it.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 1:15:41

Just be it. And as always with these conversations, I'm acutely aware of all the things we didn't talk about and all the aspects of your career, I think, especially that we haven't touched on, and your interest in AI and the work that you are doing with leaders and teams around humanity. But mostly I'm trusting also that what we did talk about is what needs to be spoken about today. And then once the conversation is out there, I'm often quite blown away by what aspects of the conversation touch other people. It's often not what I expect. It might be a piece that I might have thought was just normal or routine or, you know, something I talk about every day. But for somebody else, a sentence or a word or just a reminder of something can be incredibly powerful. So I'm grateful that you were willing to have the conversation. I'm deeply grateful for your vulnerability in the conversation. I know that talking about some of what you shared today is scary. And so I feel quite honoured that you trusted me and this platform to be a place where you talk about that. I guess I'm also deeply inspired. And for those who are listening, it'll have been edited out, but I've had numerous coughing fits along the way talking about how brave Albert has been and his vulnerability. And I'm laughing at myself because I don't know how to hold this vulnerability of being in a human body, having a coughing fit in the middle of recording an important conversation. But mostly I'm grateful that you've reminded me of how important it is to be brave and to show the shadow parts when it's appropriate and when it feels safe to do so. And I'm excited about this next phase of your life. And I look forward to seeing some of those art pieces that you may create. Thank you for the shared journey and exploration, both in this conversation, but also across many years of intersecting in terms of career.

Dr Albert Vijoen 1:17:42

Same, yeah, it's been a joy. And I'm looking forward to the next intersection where we'll find ourselves then.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 1:17:50

Absolutely. Thank you.

Dr Albert Vijoen 1:17:52

Thanks, Maria.

Dr Maria Christodoulou 1:17:55

I'm Dr. Maria Christodoulou, and you've been listening to the Awakening Doctor Podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please share it with your friends, follow Awakening Doctor on Instagram, Facebook, and Spotify, and go to Apple Podcasts to subscribe, rate, and give us a good review. Thank you so much for listening.